Re: Saddam Hussein modifies

["Arthur W. Protin Jr." (GC-ACCURATE) <cbmvax!uunet!PICA.ARMY.MIL!protin>]

Folks,
    Nick and I agree on one detail of this argument 

> The concept of to modify is a causal one,

The issue is two-fold: 1) how to deal with the general question
of "cleft place structures", and 2) what is or should be the
specific definition of "galfi".  Thus I find Nick's argument terribly
flawed when he sites what seems to be the definition in question
as part of the proof of his position.

> and the definition is that the guy who acts the action which
> modifies is the guy who does the modifying itself.

This is the very issue in the debate about the definition:
    HOW SHALLOW A DEFINITION ARE WE USING?

I find that in the real world there are usually a great many
causes for each effect and a good many effects to which each
cause contributes.  If we are using the most shallow definition
that Nick supports, then it seems like we don't even need that
word at all.  Paint-spreading obviously modifies things so
why do we need to say that I modify the wall when we are already
saying that I paint spread red paint on the blue wall.

And I miss the whole point of 

> ... if the soldiers invaded Kuwait unbidden, or indeed despite him,
> Art's statement would be invalid, ...

Of course, it would be invalid, just as it would be if Saddam
was not the ruler of Iraq, if Iraq had never invaded Kuwait
or many other preconditions were not met.  But statements in
lojban are not required to be true anymore than Saddam is
required to act responsibly.

    While it is perfectly fine for Nick to
> not care much about Sapir Whorf,

understand I am especially not interested in yet another language
corrupted to limit my ability to express what others find
inappropriate.  It will be bad enough if lojban incorporated
my values and limited people to saying things that met my
standard of correctness, it is totally unacceptable to restrict
the language to saying only the things that Nick sees as truth.
The same goes for limits to truth as seen by lojbab, John
Cowan, jimc, pc, ...
    I support efforts to incorporate as few preconceptions of
what is truth as possible.

    thank you all,
    Art Protin


Arthur Protin <protin@pica.army.mil>
These are my personal views and do not reflect those of my boss
or this installation.