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I hope you'll excuse an intrusion by a non-lojbani.  The only predlang I know
and speak right now is Loglan, though I'm beginning to work on -gua!spi.  I'm
interested in the differences between Loglan and Lojban, and hope we can learn
something from each other.

The recent messages about identity sentences make me wonder whether
Lojban has truly retained the Loglandic distinction between predication and
identification.

Consider the cmavo du, for example.  If du is at all like Loglan bi,
it is not a predicate.  Predicates are used to make claims which can be
validated or falsified; bi is not.  Identifications are not true or false, just
more or less helpful to one's audience.  So lojbab's remark that

>"du" IS an identity 'predicate', and its morphology alone flags it as
>different from other predicate words.  It claims that the two sumti on
>either side are alternate and equivalent designations for the same
>thing. Translate it best as the mathematical "=" sign.

seems rather odd.

If the following statement is correct, there is a great divergence between
Lojban and Loglan, for in Loglan, predications and identities are always kept
distinct, even syntactically.

> Lojban's predicate grammar requires even an identity sentence to be
>phrased as a predication, and as such is a mirror image of natural
>languages.

A similar question arises in the gismu list, where "budjo", "xriso", and
"jegvo" mingle with regular predicates.  I can see "budjo", if it's
properly defined:  according to most forms of Buddhism, "buddha" is a
spiritual state or rank which can be achieved by anyone.  So if
"budjo" is defined as "is a buddha/enlightened one as defined by
Buddhist belief," there's no problem.  Even "xriso" may be acceptable,
if redefined to mean "is a christ/messiah according to followers.."
Many have been called the Messiah; even today, Sun Myung Moon claims
the title.  But that's the problem:  most of these people have claimed
to be THE Messiah.  If you're a gnostic or someone else who believes
in Christ-consciousness, fine; use christ/messiah predicatively.  But
the "Christ of Christian belief" was an individual, and so was the
Messiah described in the Tanakh.  These terms would therefore not be
predicates in Loglan, but names.  Jegvo is an even more striking example.  This
is the same guy who said (Is. 44:6) "I am the first, and I am the last; and
beside me there is no God."  Are unique names/titles predicated in Lojban?

--Steve Rice