Re: Another, simpler, question

[Logical Language Group <cbmvax!uunet!pucc.princeton.edu!lojbab>]

Almost, but not quite, equivalent.

Starting with
le nanmu cu citka le cripu

This is identical to
le nanmu le cripu cu citka

and both have the same x1 and same x2.

To put both sumti after citka, you must mark the first, because Lojban
assumes that if there is no sumti before the selbri "citka" that you have
omitted the x1.  You must thus mark the x1 place with "fa" which says that
the following is the x1 place:

citka fa le nanmu le cripu

Using "fe", the marker for the x2 place, you can derive even more forms
basically mixing "fa le nanmu" "fe le cripu" and "citka" in all combinatoric
orders, inserting a "cu" if either of the sumti is before the "citka".

All of these are equivalent in a broad sense, the difference being one of
emphasis:  the thing at the front of the sentence is typical the thing of
hiughest emphasis, and the thing at the end of secondary emphasis.  The rules
for emphasis are pragmatic mostly, and are based on our experiences rather than
a formal prescription.

If you insert "se", the result is a 'conversion' and 'equivalent' becones a
trickier proposition.

le cripu cu se citka le nanmu

expresses the same relationship as the above sentences, but there is a minor
difference in that the labels 'x1' and 'x2' are reversed, and you have to
use "fa" and "fe" appropriate to the new numbering to rearrange the terms, but
all of the options listed above are still possible.

There is some question whether a conversion 'means the same thing', though,
because the other things you can do to a converted predicate have different
meanings:  "le citka" is different from "le se citka" in a later back reference
to the above sentence relationship.

There is some question whether "le nu citka" and "le nu se citka" have the
same meaning, with or without the x1 and x2 filled in.  Again, they abstract
the same realtionship, and the resulting 'event' being described is the same
event.  But we would often construe different meaning to the use of one over
the other.

lojbab@grebyn.com