Olympic article

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Of Colin's comments on the Olympic Germanos article, and my thanks for them:

>> mi na certu le se zajbrnatleta .iku'i mi co'a jimpe lenu mi poi xelso cu
>> no'e snada tu'a le la olimpik. nunjvi pevi la tokios. isa'unai mi nu'o zmadu
>> zo'epeca'aku leni snada
>"ku'i"? where's the contrast?

Thnk you for pointing this out. I suppose what I really need is {.iseji'unaibo}
("The above is not a logical basis for that...")

>I would say "mi noi xelso", but there is room for dispute. I would also
>quantify that particular "mi"  (as it has a different referent from the
>previous "mi"s in the line), but I'm not sure how.

Actually, that is the job of the {poi} in {mi poi xelso}. I see no essential
distinction in identificationally qualifying {mi} by {pe} or {poi}. The "I/we"
such that it is Greek (remember, this is {poi}, not {voi}).

>I didn't understand "zo'epeca'aku" until I read the gloss. "le ca'a
>zasti"?

Maybe. What I wanted, and am not afforded grammatically, is {le ca'a ku} =
= {le ca'a broda}. Helsem does the same mistake: {le pu do}, where {do pe pu
ku}, and often {do pe puku ge'u}, is needed.

> .iti'e le mulno nizyji'a cu te zmadu mi le
>> gugdrkore'a kuce'o le gugdrnafganistana kuce'o le gugdrkenia kuce'o le
>> gugdrtrinidada kuce'o le xanto denci xaskoi gugde .iku'i mi zmadu .u'a le
>> gugdrlixtenctaine .i lenu go'i cu pluka nuzba .i zmadu pluka fau le nu'o nu
>> le gugdrlixtenctaine cu se nunjvi la olimpik
>The whole paragraph (in fact most of the article) needs a load more
>attitudinals (which is not to belittle your choices when you have used
>them).

You are right, and {fu'e} would go a long way. But can you envisage anyone
saying "well, we weren't REALLY exceeded by the Ivory Coast, I'm just saying"?
I think the {ti'e} suffices. On the other hand, {da'i} will replace {nu'o}
in counterfactual {nu} - thanks for resolving that one for us.


>> .ipamai le brife cu to'e mapti mi .i ca ronu lomi prenu cu bajryjvi fi le
> mitre
>> beli panono gi'onai pi'ejvi fi le nunclapi'e gi'onai re'ojvi fi tu'a le
> kilga'a
>> kei ru snada lenu le brife cu to'e mapti .i le fange noroi go'i li'a .iza'a
>> le fange kuce le brife cu mabla ke tugni jasysnu .ije ri roroi sarji ra
 .isu'a
>> le brife cu jarco tai roda lenu ckaji lo stodi ka xelxei

>The second sentence needs some location (either temporal or at Tokyo) -
>I read it as a universal "every time our people run etc". Also you
>haven't got the anticipative of the English - how about "pupu'o"?

You mean, instead of {ca} for {ronu li'o bajryjvi li'o}? Hm, maybe.
I don't think Germanos meant the phrase to be restricted to Tokyo, but to
international competition. I think this a good time for {fu'eba'u}

>"gi'onai" etc. I've often been unhappy about the spurious precision of
>people using ".onai" rather than ".a", and this time I'm sure of it.

Curses, right you are. You are so right, I had to take a day's break to
cool off :) {gi'a} it is, NOT because it's shorter than {gi'onai} in
approximating "one of" (I'd still go with gi'onai in such a case), but
because Carl Lewis exists, and GIhA says nothing about tense on its own (gi'e
can pragmatically be taken to mean gi'ebazibo, but with gi'a I can't see that).
Thus one can either/or/and jump - run, not necessarily at the same time.

>".ije ri roroi sarji ra" - does "sarji" have this meaning of "support"
>or a physical meaning? I don't think it can have both.

Given the excruciatingly established dictum {e'osai ko sarji la lojban} (A
dictum which should make Lojbab use {sai} rather than {cai}, which I find
histrionic (his e'ocai translates to me as "I beg you, I'm on my knees,
pleeeease!")), there is a strong case for the "metaphorical" meaning,
whatever the intent of Lojban Central at the time.

>.i tu'a mi se fuzme lenu le bajrystu cu cilmo .e
>> lenu le bajrystu na cilmo .e lenu brife .e lenu na brife .e lenu carvi .e
 lenu
>> solgu'i .e lenu dilnu .e lenu puzi citka le dukse kei .e lenu puzi citka noda
>> kei .e lenu puze'u na cpacu lo xatra kei .e lenu na puzi jinga fo tu'a le
>> jmaboi nunjvi cundinkei .iji'a mi se xlali nu'i lenu jivna pu le dedmidju kei
>> ki'u lenu pu'i camcikna nu'u.e lenu jivna ba le dedmidju kei ki'u lenu ca
>> djarunta .isu'a mi se xlali lonu jivna .i lei puzi se cusku cu so'omei lei
>> velci'i poi caza se cusku .iku'i mi va'o lenu xamgu to jo'u xlali toi djica
 cu
>> ka'e facki lo drata

>"ki'u lenu pu'i camcikna" - I think there's a negative missing here.

No. I am in the "until" of wide-awake = I am not yet wide awake. That's how
I interpret {pu'i}.

>"lei puzi se cusku cu so'omei lei velci'i poi caza se cusku" - the
>repetition is inelegant, and doesn't translate the English. How about
>"se tirne" for the last?

Ack

>"iku'i" again.

This time, though, not necessarily to do with {ji'u}. MAybe {ji'a}?

>"va'o lenu xamgu djica" - in circumstances of choosing well - I don't
>understand that to be "good will". "leka xamgu djica" would be better,
>but still not satisfactory.

I don't agree with either a cut&dry disctinction between {nu} and {ka},
or that xamgu djica isn't adequate for good will.

>Football: I suggest "boltikpa" x1 plays football against x2. Then a
>football match is either "nu boltikpa" or "nu boltikpajvi". A football
>is strictly "boltipyboi", but normally "tipyboi" will do.

Myself, I'd say boltipyjvi, nu boltipyjvi, nunboltipyjvikezboi = tipyboi.
So be it noted.

>boltikpa ca'i la sokr

{ca'i}, which I think is wrong anyway (one does not have authority over
actions in lojban to my knowledge; it sounds to me this is really the
modal for {curmi}) is not the most obviously right choice here. I'd prefer
{ja'i}, by rule.

>> .imu'ubo zemai nu darlu tu'a le tutrkipro .i leimi zajbrnatleta ca le
>> cabna tcini cu.ei so'iroi carmi jundi .iti'e pu lenu co'a clapi'ejvi fa
>> loi drapre .eji'a lo brito kei le zajyctu cu to'ecla ve notci fi le kerlo
>> be lemi prenu lu ko no'e carmi tu'a le brito li'u .iseki'ubo ge le brito
>> cu pamoi gi lemi prenu cu remumoi;
>"nu darlu"? I should rate it as at least "nu damba".

Slight slip (OK, not so slight) - but the original has simply "the Cypriot
[thing]", which usually translates as "The Cyprus Question". Conflict is
possible, but not, I suspect, necessary in political "Questions". If it is,
then {dapysnu}, fine.

>"tu'a le brito" - I read that as "don't be to excessively British-like",
>and didn't understand.

Very well, {tu'a le ritpre}

>> .ibimai nu mi rolzda snada loi drata .i.eiro'apa'e mi na djica lenu snada
>> roda .i mi jinga le la nobel. cnemu .i lemi prenu cu jinga lenu se cmene
>> lu munje ke fetnalspe mebrai li'u .i.e'a lo fange cu jinga su'oda
>> .isomai nu seltru le gugdrturki,e vau.ua .ilenu go'i cu punai se cusku
>> su'oda .ije mi gleki lenu mi pamoi le'i cusku be ra .i lenu seltru le
>> gugdrturki,e cu fuzme je'u lo so'amei .ija'ebo .e'e fuzme le se lifri be mi
>> beivi la tokios .ijonaili'a la tokios. fuzme le se lifri be mi beica lenu
>> seltru le gugdrturki,e;

>"le la nobel. cnemu .i lemi prenu" - I would prefer to quantify both
>these sumti.

Ack

>"gugdrturki,e" - but it wasn't a gugde that ruled, and it wasn't Turkey.
>I would use either "jectrxosmanli" (the Ottoman state) or "natmyturki,e"

The reasonable question is, though, is it a good translation if we make
the average Greek conscious of the Ottoman/Turkish distinction (most Greeks
probably still dismiss it as apologist propaganda). Since I suspect "good"
translation is not the primary intent of writing at this stage of the
language, I think {jectrturki,e} reasonablish, but will accept {jectrxosmanli}.

>> .i mi pensi le bajryjvi befi la maraton. beira'i le gugdrnetiopia be'o noi
>> claxu leka jikca xaujdi kei ja'e lenu jinga re la olimpik. lamji nunjvi
>> cnemu gi'ega'i se jamfu le lunbe caku .ije'u mi na zanru lenu lo se
>> zajbrnatleta cu gubgau lei cfila be le cecmu jditai be levo'a jecta .i
>> mi fau lenu loi se gugdrnetiopia cu claxu lo cutci cu.e'u se vencu ri gi'e
>> dunda ri ra .ifaubo lo se gugdrnetiopia banai bajryjvi fi la maraton.

>"lamji nunjvi cnemu" - didn't suggest "consecutive to me" - "simla'i" or
>"porla'i"

I take porla'i

>"gubgau" - to me this is "publically acts" - I think you ast least want
>a "kaz" in there - I would suggest "kazgubga'i" (quality of public
>alter)

Which brought me to the chilling realisation: all the factitives and
pseudofactitives I've used (ctiri'a, sudri'a, sudgau) are probably more
amenable to analysis with a {nun} in front. Compromise: make the
pseudofactitive less pseudo: gubri'agau (-ri'agau, cause-act, as opposed to
-ri'a, be a cause, is too long, but the only NLish factitive we've got
(one, that is, with an agent rather than an action for an x1)).

>> .i
>> mi fau lenu loi se gugdrnetiopia cu claxu lo cutci cu.e'u se vencu ri gi'e
>> dunda ri ra .ifaubo lo se gugdrnetiopia banai bajryjvi fi la maraton.

>I have a lot of trouble interpreting .iBAIbo, so I'm not sure if this is
>confusing or just whether I don't know how to read it. But I didn't get
>the concessive sense of this.

Hm. The {ifaubo} isn't explicitly concessive, I'll admit. What of {.iseja'ebo
.au}?

>> .imumai vi se cmima ro zajbrnatleta poi se gugde lo te nizyxa'u befi li
>> za'ubipimuki'oki'o .ili'a le namcu no'u li bipimuki'oki'o cu curve snuti
>> .i na srana lo steci gugde .i mi puzika'e cusku lu pare li'u .onai lu pamu
> li'u
>> .iku'i seja'e lenu mi cusku lu bipimu li'u cu.e'u za'ubipimuki'oki'omei

>"le namcu li'o cu curve snuti"? Understandable, but not precise. Really
>ought to have a "lenu" in there.

{le nu cuxna le namcu}? I don't mind. I was going to argue for concrete
sumti as x1s of snuti, but it's not worth it.

>".i mi puzika'e" - again I don't get a counterfactual sense. "puzipu'o"
>would be better, but I suspect that "da'i" is better still.

I like neither of these (if you mean pu'i). pu'i is wrong, and da'i does
not sound right in context. I think this is one occasion counterfactual
{nu'o} can work.

>what's wrong with ".e'u li 8.5,000,000"?

Nix. So noted.

>>.i mi ca'a vimcu le gugdrbrito .e le gugdrdotco
>. . .
>"ca'a"? This is all counterfactual - I don't know whether you can use
>this in that context or not.

I'm being loose. I meant {capu}.

>> .iku'i mi [ji'u <lenu noda djuno [ro ba fasnu
>> <pe lemi zajbrnatleta> <zi'ene[mu'u <le jaitai cikybi'o be ri beica [le
 nunjvi
>> dinri .e lenu ra caku xalbo .e lenu caku na dukse citka ganse]>]>]>] cu.e'u
> cmima
>> le somoi

>I had to put all the above grouping in to be sure, but I think your
>".e"'s attach to the wrong place.

Ack

>                That was fun!

Glad to have been of service. What I'm wondering though, is: was it funny?

Nick.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nick Nicholas, Melbourne Uni, Australia.  nsn@{munagin.ee|mullauna.cs}.mu.oz.au
"Despite millions of dollars of research, death continues to be this nation's
number one killer"      - Henry Gibson, Kentucky Fried Movie
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