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names translations

>Date:         Thu, 13 Feb 1992 02:35:50 -0500
>From: Logical Language Group <lojbab%GREBYN.COM@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>

>My hypothesis is that names, and words you want to borrow for that
>matter, may be loan-translated iff the etymological components are
>semantically meaningful in some obvious way; i.e. the name is
>'descriptive'.  The name "The Dead Sea" describes a feature of the body
>of water.  It is known, and not just locally, that this description
>applys in this way.  Likewise the Great Salt Lake of Utah.  New Delhi
>can be mix translated iff there exists a Delhi, which New Delhi is a
>rebuilding of.  Mark's West Orange works, because (I believe) there is
>an East Orange, and maybe a couple of other Oranges nearby.  Thus, if
>the group of them is called (as it might be) "The Oranges", then if the
>town to the west is West Orange, Lojban-translating the West is legit.

Well, there certainly is an East Orange, and a South Orange, and an Orange
(no North Orange).  And they are collectively referred to as "The Oranges".
But there is still a problem or two left to deal with.  First off, on a
purely grammatical point, how do we swing this?  Translating a whole name,
I can see.  cmenifying a whole name, also.  But half-translations bust the
grammar.  {la stici narju} (assuming "Orange" as color, which is wrong) is
grammatical, as is {la .uest. .oranj.}.  But {*la stici .oranj.} doesn't
work.  Maybe {la .oranj. poi stici}, but that's mighty long-winded, after
all the name of the city is "West Orange", not "Orange, but the western
one".  The relative clause makes people think of something else.  {la stic.
oranj.} would be okay, but would confuse people thoroughly.

Also, I should have said:  in English, we use "The Dead Sea", an English
phrase.  But what is it a translation of?  Not the Hebrew, ancient or
modern.  The local name translates to "The Salt Sea".  Similarly, "The Reed
Sea", not "Red Sea".  Do we follow local usage?  Probably, but this
confuses non-locals (can't be helped), and runs into the question of
*which* local usage, as elsewhere.

~mark (shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu)