Jimbobs

[cbmvax!uunet!mullian.ee.mu.oz.au!nsn]

The following very interesting exchange happened on conlang list:


Date: 16 Mar 92 00:00:10 EST
From: Don Harlow <72627.2647@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Reply to rgaskell
Message-Id: <920316050009_72627.2647_DHJ44-1@CompuServe.COM>

Bear with me for a moment. Much of the conlang discussion I've seen over
thirty years -- this includes not only a month and a half of the conlang list,
but also the Hardins' "International Language Review," various magazines
published by proponents of various language projects, etc. -- makes me think of
a group of would-be rock-climbers clustered at the foot of El Capitan, a
1000-meter sheer wall on the north side of Yosemite Valley, who are
arguing among themselves about the proper technique for starting their
climb to the top. Two or three have actually tried to start; a couple got three
meters off the ground and then fell back, bruising their _glutei maximi_
(_gluteos maximos_, but I don't want to offend anybody by using an accusative
ending) in the process, and one has actually attained the twenty meter level, is

gritting his teeth in sheer determination, and glumly contemplates the 980
meters
ahead of him. Meanwhile, the only thing the ones on the ground seem able to
agree on is that the guy at twenty meters up bought his equipment at a fire
sale and learned his climbing technique in a sandbox. They may be right; this
is,
after all, his first climb, too, just as it is theirs. One of them even shouts
at him
that if he had any consideration, he'd rapelle back to the ground and make way
for some _competent_ climbers.

(I should add that there's a gang of apes at the top who, every now and then
when they see someone actually climbing, will kick a 100-kg rock down at him
to try to knock him off. They own the top of the cliff, and don't want you to
forget it. If you doubt this, read Ulrich Lins's _La dan<gera lingvo_, all 500+
pages of it.)

As to proper climbing technique, the main question on which they cannot agree
is this: is the best tool with which to start our climb a three-legged stool, a
kitchen chair, or a Sears & Roebuck folding metal stepladder?

Stools, chairs and stepladders all have their places in climbing -- getting that

book off the top shelf, cleaning out the rain gutters, getting to the faucet
when
you're three years old. But they're out of place at the foot of El Capitan. In
other words, the climbers are asking the wrong question.

Similarly, if you're a scientific, experimental, literary, or simply curious
conlanger, questions about linguistic structure, vocabulary sources, etc. are
all important and valid ones. Not only that, they're fun to argue (if you
don't make the mistake of taking them too seriously). But if you're a "global"
conlanger -- a proponent of some particular conlang, or even of just any old
conlang, as a global interlanguage, they are ultimately irrelevant, or at
best only marginally relevant. Yeah, that stepladder's the best of the three --
it'll get you two meters off the ground, and leave you a mere 998 meters to
go, using techniques that have nothing whatsoever to do with stools,
chairs or stepladders.

[...]

Incidentally, that guy's still twenty meters up and climbing; he learned early
to
use pitons. And he's a lot more worried about those apes at the top than he is
about you. Maybe you can pass him while he's sleeping. Maybe he'll fall
off when he tries to sling a hammock. Maybe the apes will hit him with a
rock. Maybe, once you actually start climbing, they'll hit _you_ with a rock!

Message-Id: <199203160608.AA20773@munagin.ee.mu.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Reply to rgaskell
In-Reply-To: Your message of "16 Mar 92 00:00:10 EST."
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 92 16:08:46 +1000
From: nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU

Don, a very good response there. Just a couple of clarifications.

[...]

Not everyone is going rock-climbing up the wall you talk about. Some see
the apes abseiling down, for instance, and aren't that  fussed. Sure, the
apes tend to collide with eachother. but they do tend to cover a lot of
ground.

A few members of the El Zamenhofo climbing team, on the other hand (schismatics
led by Il Silferissimo), and more than half the Lojbo Jimbobs (not to mention
a fair few types clothed in elvish gear) aren't as fussed about the wall
as the others. They've found a few relatively shallow pits, and are usually
happy to jump in and out of them. The Jimbobs like somersaulting in their
soft sandpit. The Silferistas go around performing home improvement operations
on their somewhat deeper pit, taking advantage of the fact that their pit
has been boot camp for the Zamenhofos for a long time. Some of the stones
hurled by the apes have landed in this pit; some even think that lends the
pit atmosphere.

I don't know how valid the analogy is; as for me, I receive mail at both pits,
and am usually not that distressed about the niches the mainstream Zamenhofos,
yonder-ways, are carving into the face of the wall with their penknives.

Ugh. I don't do this analogy thing as well as you, Don :) In any case; it
is not true that all the subscribers of conlang eat, drink, and sleep the
wall. Me, I'm finding my sandpit a lot of fun. So does Ivan derJimbob,
Mark Joulsonbob, and Colin Jinebob. Bob LeJimbob doesn't hang around our
particular sandpit these days, but he isn't really at the wall you're at,
either. He's found himself a 500m wall, and he's got rungs, but he's still
waiting for the hammers. As to whether your shouted instruction, from your
wall across the sandpits to his, will help him (and those in the sandpit),
time will tell. (That and, as you say, the skeleton of the "Schleyer ist
Herrgot" team-member you passed by in 1895).

I really should lay offa them drugs. Apologies to anyone who has felt offended
by this very confused analogy. Nick.


Message-Id: <m0lR2HO-0000xkC@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: cbmvax!snark.thyrsus.com!cowan@uunet.UU.NET (John Cowan)
Subject: Re: Jimbobs
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 92 10:10:10 EST

Nickbob writes:

> Me, I'm finding my sandpit a lot of fun. So does Ivan derJimbob,
> Mark Joulsonbob, and Colin Jinebob. Bob LeJimbob doesn't hang around our
> particular sandpit these days, but he isn't really at the wall you're at,
> either. He's found himself a 500m wall, and he's got rungs, but he's still
> waiting for the hammers.

John McJohnbob, who always seems (inexplicably) to get left out of these
lists, is squatting in the bottom of the sandpit, feverishly re-reading his
three-foot shelf of climbing documentation (poorly bound, unindexed, and
typeset entirely in monospaced Flyspeck 3).  In the other hand, he holds a
much-marked-up list of needed equipment.  "Let's see: rope, hammers, pitons,
crampons, tampons, clamp-ons, spit, chewing gum....", he mutters.

And then we mustn't forget Carter Jimbob, who sits at the side of the pit
with his back to the rest of the Jimbobs (he does look over his shoulder
occasionally).  He is engaged in digging out a small but deep excavation with
his bare hands, and is sometimes heard to wonder why he can't seem to keep
the sand from falling back in so fast.  Next to him are Bruce Jilsonbob and his
merry men, who are doing the same with their larger but much shallower hole.
The sand is falling back into their hole as well, but they are digging so fast
they haven't really noticed yet.

There is a rumor among the Jimbobs that somewhere in the pit, or perhaps in
a different pit of the same size and shape (this question being hotly debated
among the Jimbobs) there still exists the legendary First Digger, Jimbrownbob.
But whereas the First Digger was formerly notorious for the volume of his
voice, audible at every part of the pit, those who claim to have spoken with
him in recent years say that he has become much subdued and hard to hear,
and even (in one of his rare public appearances) completely inaudible.
(The title of "First Digger" signifies only that in meetings of the Jimbobs,
he digs first.)

And so on....

Message-Id: <199203190705.AA21552@munagin.ee.mu.OZ.AU>
To: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com (John Cowan)
Subject: Re: Jimbobs
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 17:05:55 +1000
From: nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU

John McJohnbob writes:
(btw, John, why the "Mc"?)
.Nickbob writes:

.> Me, I'm finding my sandpit a lot of fun. So does Ivan derJimbob,
.> Mark Joulsonbob, and Colin Jinebob. Bob LeJimbob doesn't hang around our
.> particular sandpit these days, but he isn't really at the wall you're at,
.> either. He's found himself a 500m wall, and he's got rungs, but he's still
.> waiting for the hammers.

.John McJohnbob, who always seems (inexplicably) to get left out of these
.lists

Yeah, it *is* strange that I keep doing this, isn't it? Hm. If the conlang-
istanis will pardon the Lojban politics, part of the reason is that you seem
to be the only person around writing up shopping lists for climbing equipment
(and toy shovels). In that respect, you are, I daresay, a tad above the
sandpit. After all, when I tell Mum all the great friends I made at kindergarten
today, the Teacher doesn't spring to mind, any more than does the School
Principal. Perhaps he should. Especially as Teach is no stranger to the
sandpit games, the latest of which involved Beowulf :)

My hats off, though, for a brilliant sandpit tale, which deserves to get into
a JL or three.

Nick, splashing sand far and wide, currently running a game in which a circle
of people pour the same cupful of sand into eachother's hands (the phone game).


Message-Id: <m0lROr8-00016VC@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com (John Cowan)
Subject: Re: Jimbobs
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 10:16:33 EST

> John McJohnbob writes:
> (btw, John, why the "Mc"?)

Is simple.  "Cowan" is an Irish name, "Mac Eoin", where "Eoin" (pronounced
roughly "Owen") is the earlier Irish form of "John".  So I am John, son of
John.

> .Nickbob writes:

Actually, I'm not crazy about this; do you have a better name for yourself?

> After all, when I tell Mum all the great friends I made at kindergarten
> today, the Teacher doesn't spring to mind, any more than does the School
> Principal. Perhaps he should. Especially as Teach is no stranger to the
> sandpit games, the latest of which involved Beowulf :)

That's what >you< say.  When my four-year-old daughter actually >went< to
kindergarten, the first friend she mentioned >was< the teacher.  (I should
mention that this is one-a-dem progressive places wherein Teach is known as
"Julie" instead of "Ms. Kirkpatrick."

> My hats off, though, for a brilliant sandpit tale, which deserves to get into
> a JL or three.

Thanks.

----

If anyone else wants to continue this currazy wacky stream, hey, I won't
stop them... :)

Nick.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nick Nicholas, Melbourne Uni, Australia.  nsn@{munagin.ee|mundil.cs}.mu.oz.au
"Despite millions of dollars of research, death continues to be this nation's
number one killer"      - Henry Gibson, Kentucky Fried Movie
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