TECH.QUERY: zo bancu cu mo zo zmadu leka smuni

["Mark E. Shoulson" <shoulson@CTR.COLUMBIA.EDU>]

>Date: Sat, 19 Sep 92 02:48:08 -0400
>From: lojbab@grebyn.com (Logical Language Group)

>The question between zmadu and bancu is NOT the x3 place, which they share,
>but the x4 place that they don't.

Yes, I mistyped.  I meant the x4 place.

>  I am not sure that your version of the
>statement using zmadu is as clear as the same statement using bancu.  The
>x4 place that you did not supply may not be meaningful, even if there is
>a way to define its value (certainly mathematicians/geometers can tell how
>much more distant the tree is from you than the fence.  But the essential
>claim is that the tree is on the other side of the fence and not that it is
>more distant from you than the fence.  Hmm.  Indeed, the fence might be in a
>different direction from you than the tree, and closer to you, and the s
>statement involving zmadu would be true, but not the statement involving
>bancu.  Thus bancu ==> zmadu but not necessarily vice versa.

Oh, is that the essential difference that "bancu" gives?  That it is
necessarily in the same "direction"?  That seems pretty specific for a
gismu, applicable in spatial relationships and little else.  I suspect you
can probably do {le tricu cu zmadu le bitmu leni darno mi tu'a le farna be
le bitmu bei mi}.  OK, that's ugly, but I couldn't find a better way to say
"...measured in the distance to the fence from me," and don't tell me there
isn't one.

>So there are two criteria: relevance of the x4 place to the claim, and this
>latter implication distinction, that would seem to differ between the two.

You are starting to make sense; the second criterion seems marginally
reasonable, though it should certainly be made clear in the gi'uste.  Use
of "beyond" doesn't really cut it for me.  I'm not 100% convinced yet, but
it's a start.

>As to WHY we have both mleca and zmadu: because people make conceptual
>distinctions in each direction.  <....>

Yes, I've accepted the need for, and the existence of, both {mleca} and
{zmadu}.  As I said, I was getting carried away there.

~mark