Re: possible sumti-raising place structures of the sisku variety

[John Cowan <snark!cowan@GVLS1.VFL.PARAMAX.COM>]

la lojbab. cusku di'e

(Note: I have deleted all the gismu I think are fine as-is, because they
are general enough to cover either abstract or concrete sumti.  For
example, we can attend to (jundi) either an object or a state of affairs.)

> cerda heir x1 is an heir to/is to inherit x2 (object/quality) from x3
> according to rule x4 a 13 (cf. jgina)

This reflects an old complaint of mine: that by Roman law, the heir doesn't
inherit specific objects, but rather the legal personality of the deceased
(steps into his/her shoes, as it were).  I don't think the current wording
is a problem.

> fliba fail 'baffle' x1 fails at doing/being x2 (object/state/event); x1
> is a failure 8g 4 (cf. cfila, snada, srera, troci)

Raised x2; should be changed to remove "object".

> jarco show x1 (person/object) shows/exhibits/displays/reveals x2
> (object/property) to audience x3 8c 85 [reveal (= mipyja'o, sivja'o);
> also demonstrate]; (cf. tigni)

I don't understand why "property" here.  Seems to be just a way of saying
"object which has property", which is just "le [se] ckaji".

> jbera borrow x1 (agent) borrows/temporarily takes/assumes x2
> (object/property) from source x3 for interval x4 3m 6 [credit (=
> jernu'e)]; (cf. dejni)

No need for "property" here either.

> kargu costly x1 (object/property) is costly/expensive/dear to x2 by
> standard x3 5e 55 (cf. vamji, dirba, vajni)

Don't understand why "property" here.

> klina clear x1 (object/media) is clear/transparent/without obstacle to
> in-the-clear x2 [transmission] 7j 32 [also lucid; x2 remains
> apparent/lucid/clear (figurative use for 'understandable' is
> discouraged)]; (cf. kandi)

Irrelevant to this issue.

> lebna take x1 takes/gets/gains/obtains/seizes/[removes] x2
> (object/property) from x3 (possessor) 2b 81 [also confiscate,
> appropriate]; [acquire with volition such that x1 gains possession; x3
> is possessor and not merely source, alienation is implied]; (cf. punji,
> cpacu where volition or previous possession is not necessarily implied,
> vimcu for alienation where x1 need not gain possession)

Is "removing a property" really the same as "removing a thing"?  I think
"lebna" should be confined to the latter, and some other form found for
"causing a thing not to have a property any longer".

> steci specific 'special' x1 is specific/particular/specialized/[special]
> to subset/ind. x2 among x3(s) (set/members) 7j 39 [also:  especially
> associated]; (x1 is an object/property); [x2 is also special to x1];
> (cf. srana, se ponse, ckini)

Different problem: x3 should be firmly a set.

> cilre learn x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4
> (obj./event)/by method x5 (event/process) *1h 85 (cf. ctuca, tadni,
> djuno, ckule)

Separate problem: the slash before "by method" doesn't belong there.

> ckana bed x1 is a bed/pallet of material x2 for holding/supporting x3
> (person/object/event) an 111 (cf. kamju, kicne, nilce, palta, cpana,
> vreta, jubme, stizu, matci, zbepi)

I don't understand "event" here.  How can an event be supported by a bed?

> ckire grateful x1 is grateful/thankful to/appreciative of x2 for x3
> (object/event/property) 2l 53 [also gratitude (= nunckire or kamckire)]

Raised x3; remove "object".

> curmi let 'permit' x1 agent lets/permits/allows x2 (object/event) under
> conditions x3; x1 grants privilege x2 8e 57

Raised x2; remove "object".  We do not permit someone, we permit that
(someone does something).

> darsi audacity 'dare' x1 shows audacity/chutzpah in behavior x2
> (event/activity); x1 dares to do/be x2 (object/event) a 6 [x1 is bold];
> (cf. virnu)

Raised x2; remove "object".

> facki discover 'find' x1 discovers/finds out x2 (du'u) about
> subject/object x3; x1 finds (fi) x3 (object) 4d 128 (cf. cirko, djuno,
> jijnu, smadi, sisku)

Doesn't belong here.

> gidva guide x1 (person/object/event) guides/conducts/pilots/leads x2
> (event) 5d 17 (cf. jitro, ralju, sazri, te bende, jatna)

I think this is mixed up with "lidne", and should be x1 (person) guides
x2 (person).

> gunka work x1 [person] labors/works on/at x2 [activity] with
> goal/objective x3 8c 174 [also x1 is a worker/laborer]; (cf. sazri,
> gasnu, se jibri; zukte, which need not be labor; physics term 'work' =
> ni majmu'u)

I don't see why this is listed.

> kurji take care of 'care' x1 takes-care-of/looks after/attends
> to/provides for/is caretaker for x2 (object/event/person) 2l 49 [also
> tends, cares for, keeps; x1 is a keeper/custodian of x2]; (cf. jundi,
> cinri, prami)

I don't know what "event" is doing here; remove.

> minra reflect 'mirror' x1 reflects/mirrors/echoes x2 [object/radiation]
> to observer/point x3 as x4; x2 bounces on x1 *a 40 [also x1 is a
> mirror/reflector]; [x2 may be light, lu'e of an imaged object; x4 may be
> image or echo or the same as x2 if physical object; x3 may be a path for
> a bounced object; ka is reflection]; (cf. catlu, viska, lenjo)

Doesn't seem to belong in this list.

> sisku seek x1 seeks/searches/looks for x2 (object/event) in environment
> x3/for property x2 among set x3 *8g 89 (cf. cirko, kalte, kavbu, kucli,
> rivbi, manci)

Already fixed, you said, but not shown here.

> skicu describe x1 tells about/describes x2 (object/event/state) to
> audience x3 with description x4 (property) 7j 97 (cf. lisri)

Not raised; no problem.

> snura secure x1 is secure/safe from threat x2 (object/event) 9a 34 (cf.
> ckape, kajde, marbi, terpa, xalni)

Ditto.

> spuda reply 'respond' x1 answers/replies to/responds to
> person/object/event/situation x2 with response x3 1h 67 (cf. cusku,
> preti, nabmi, danfu, frati)

Ditto.

> tarion x2
> (object/event) 8d 62 (cf. cmavo list zau, natfe)

Did something drop out here?  (Bad upload?)

> The following is not explicit, but is close enough to sisku to raise as
> an issue.  Can you hunt a unicorn?
>
> kalte hunt x1 hunts/stalks prey/quarry x2 for purpose x3 as 15 [also
> verb fish (= fipkalte)]; (cf. jersi, kavbu, sisku)

I think this could go either way.  We have fox hunters, deer hunters, but
no unicorn hunters.  My sense is that this should be left alone, and then
"looking for" can be either {sisku} or {kalte}; {sisku} if you don't know
what specifically you are looking for, but can recognize it if you find it
(by property); {kalte} if you know what you want (your glasses, e.g.).

--
John Cowan      cowan@snark.thyrsus.com         ...!uunet!lock60!snark!cowan
                        e'osai ko sarji la lojban.