Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita

[Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>]

la djan cusku di'e
>
> la xorxes. cusku di'e
>
> > This is fine, but then what is the definition of broda' for a
> > PU ZAhO tcita, say "puza'o"?
> >
> > "which takes place in the past of the za'o phase of x4"?
> > (This splits "puza'o")
> >
> > or "which takes place in the za'o phase of x4, which is in the past"?
> > (This keeps puza'o as one tense, but is different from the use of
> > "pu" as tcita.) This (more or less) is the interpretation lojbab gave.
>
> I believe the right answer is that nobody knows the right answer yet.
> We attempt to define semantics to the extent needed to get the language
> bootstrapped: thus (e.g.) the le/lo distinction discussed here recently.

OK, but do you agree that the answer has to be one of those two? (or
something close to one, I'm not saying that they cover all the details).
I think that both show an inconsistency: either you have to split "puza'o",
or you have to interpret the "pu" in a different way when it is followed by
a ZAhO, than when it isn't.


> There are many constructs that are grammatical but as yet have no known
> use:
>
>         mi klama le zarci ve'i le nu do dansu le bisli
>
> Somebody may someday mean something by this, but I at least do not understand
> it.  (I know several things it probably doesn't mean, though.)
>

Well, I would say that this means "My going to the store takes place in
a tiny region of space, which is somehow related to your dancing to the
ice." The phrase makes as little sense in Lojban as it does in English, but
not because there is any problem with the semantics rules. (Don't tell me that
it's the dancing that takes place in the tiny space, please!) I have much more
difficulty in finding a meaning for the "dansu le bisli" than for the "ve'i".
Something like:

        mi dansu ve'i le soryre'a kumfa

could mean something like "I dance in the little space of the crowded room"
(maybe a large room).


> > > Specifying a sumti has generally the following consequencies:
> > >
> > >   (1) it NEVER does give a contour to the outer bridi -- all
> > >       the sumti must be specifiable at the same time and
> > >       different sumti might imply different contours, even
> > >       mutually contradictory.
> >
> > I'm not sure why this is a GENERAL consequence of specifying a sumti.
> > It can only apply to ZAhO tcita sumti, or am I missing something?
> > Of course it is possible to say things that are contradictory, with
> > any interpretation.
>
> I think the answer is that specifying a sumti (modal or standard) does not
> contour the bridi, because contouring is achieved with selbri tcita.
>
I know that it doesn't, that is the conventional rule that was chosen, but
how is this general for standard or non-ZAhO modal sumti? How could they
possibly give a contour to the outer bridi?


> > Compare:
> >
> >         __mi dunda le cakla do__
> >         I give you the chocolate.
> > and
> >         __mi dunda le cakla do bai le mi mamta__
> >         I give you the chocolate compelled by my mother.
> >
> > Is the relationship between "mi", "le cakla" and "do" unchanged?
>
> I would be inclined to say no: it is still the case that I give you the
> chocolate.  The "bai" place has added new information, not overridden old
> information.

I guess your "no" means that you agree that the relationship has changed?
This double negatives are always a problem. :)

The new relationship is "bai dunda":

        __mi bai dunda le cakla do__

The ZAhO in the same way would add new information, they'd tell you which
phase of the event to focus on.

>
> > I agree that the meaning that the ZAhO have is reasonable for a
> > sumti tcita. What I'm saying is that that meaning does not fit well
> > with their meaning as tenses. This is most clear in the case of
> > the ZAhOs other than "pu'o" and "ba'o". For instance:
> >
> > mi zutse le srasu za'o le nu co'a carvi
> > *I keep sitting on the grass as it starts to rain.
> >
> > Under the current interpretation, I'd have to say:
> >
> > mi za'o zutse le srasu ca le nu co'a carvi
>
> No, that doesn't work, because "ca" is aorist.

I think it still says what I want:
"I keep sitting on the grass at the time in which it starts to rain."
It may be the case that I'll keep sitting there at other times. I think
that the aorist nature of "ca" is not a problem here. Even if you think
of the start of the rain as an extended event, it still makes sense.
The only problem is that the conection between "natural end of sitting
on the grass", and "start of rain" is weaker than if the "za'o" was the
sumti tcita.

As you say, the other options you write make slightly different claims.

        __co'a carvi za'o le nu mi zutse le srasu__
        It starts to rain as I keep sitting on the grass.

The claim is about the rain, not at all what I mean.

> One possible way around this problem would be a new particle, say "xa'o",
> such that xa'o+ZAhO is grammatically equivalent to a brivla with place
> structure:
>
>         x1 (event) is the <whichever> phase of x2 (event).
>
> That would allow sentences like:
>
>         le nu co'a carvi xa'o za'o le nu mi zutse le srasu
>
> Comments?

I think that the two things that are related by the ZAhOs are the event proper
and a point (maybe an event taken as a point). I'm not sure if this point is
what you mean by phase. This point is, in each case:

ba'o    a point in the aftermath of the event
ca'o    a point during the event
co'a    the point where the event starts
co'i    a point for the whole event
co'u    the point where the event ends
de'a    a point where the event pauses (or a point during the pause, it is
        not clear from the definition)
di'a    a point where the event resumes
mo'u    a point where the event naturally ends
pu'o    a point in the anticipation of the event
za'o    a point where the event should naturally end, but doesn't

This is what we claim when using them as tenses.

I would like to be able to say:

        __mi sipna za'o le tcika be le nu mi ta'e co'a gunka__
        *I over-sleep beyond the time I usually start to work.

If the only way to do this is with a new cmavo, then at least define it
the other way around, so that the event that I'm interested in is x1,
rather than x2, as is the case with cabna, purci and balvi.


co'o mi'e xorxes.