Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai

[Chris Bogart <cbogart@quetzal.com>]

[Oops, I sent this directly to la xorxes. instead of to the list.  Sorry for
the duplication doi xorxes.]


mi'e kris.

la xorxes. cu cusku di'e:
>Either be nitpicky or write some Lojban, or both.

mi gasnu le remei .iku'i na simcabna ki'u lenu mi na djica lenu le mi besna
cu spoja zo'o

>The problem is that the definitions are plagued with
>slots that allow object/event, while others only allow one type, and I
>don't see any rule being followed. For example, le se spuda and le se nelci
>can be object/event, but le bapli and le se djica only events. I don't see
>what makes the ones more loose than the others.

If I were writing the gismu definitions I would change instances of
"object/event" to just "event", for clarity, and I would argue that that
should not change the meanings at all.  If nelci's x2 only allowed an event,
but you stuck "do" in there anyway, e.g. "mi nelci do", then the listener
trying to stretch their brain to think of "do" as an event or property,
would actually end up with the meaning that was probably intended. i.e. I
like "you", the event/abstraction, not some particular event that you
participated in.  "mi nelci tu'a do", then, is also correct, but means "I
like something about you".  The "object" in "object/event", then, is just a
clue to the semantics of the predicate, not an arbitrary restriction on the
use of the place.

The same can be said, but far less usefully, of the x1 place of bapli.  "mi
bapli lenu broda" could mean that my mere existence forces something to
happen, and maybe someone would want to say that, but the meaning isn't what
you'd expect in a malglico word-for-word translation.  The danger of
mistranslation there is a good reason not to list "object" as a possibility
for the x1 place. An object is legal there but should only be used by
trained professionals wearing certified safety equipment :-)

I haven't been through the gismu list in great detail, and it might be that
many of them don't fit my little theory.  Your other example, "spuda",
doesn't seem to fit.  If there are lots more of these we'll either have to
change the gismu list or ask la kris. to change his theory :-)

PS since the reference grammar is nearing publication then, I'll go ahead
and mention another small glitch:

-----------------
        ga'i    hauteur/rank    equal rank      meekness/lack of rank [galtu]

This is the scale used to indicate condescension or polite deference,
probably to be used after the manner of the Japanese.  It is not respect
in general, which is ".io".  Whatever it is attached to is marked as
being below (for "ga'i") or above (for "ga'inai") the speaker's rank.

7.1)    ko ga'inai nenri klama le mi zdani
        you-imperative [low-rank!] enter type-of come-to my house.
        Honorable one, enter my unworthy house.
-----------------

Something should be reworded here, because the example is not consistent
with Japanese usage; in Japanese you'd attatch the cmavo indicating high
rank to "ko", and a particle meaning low-rank to "zdani"
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Chris Bogart
 cbogart@quetzal.com
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