Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai

[Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>]

la kris cusku di'e

> la xorxes. cu cusku di'e:
> >Either be nitpicky or write some Lojban, or both.
>
> mi gasnu le remei .iku'i na simcabna ki'u lenu mi na djica lenu le mi besna
> cu spoja zo'o

i mi pu jinvi le du'u la lojban se pilno fi le nu pevsatre le besna
i xu le nu pevsatre cu rinka le nu spoja

> If I were writing the gismu definitions I would change instances of
> "object/event" to just "event", for clarity, and I would argue that that
> should not change the meanings at all.  If nelci's x2 only allowed an event,
> but you stuck "do" in there anyway, e.g. "mi nelci do", then the listener
> trying to stretch their brain to think of "do" as an event or property,
> would actually end up with the meaning that was probably intended. i.e. I
> like "you", the event/abstraction, not some particular event that you
> participated in.  "mi nelci tu'a do", then, is also correct, but means "I
> like something about you".  The "object" in "object/event", then, is just a
> clue to the semantics of the predicate, not an arbitrary restriction on the
> use of the place.

That makes a lot of sense. I agree that arbitrary restrictions are not a good
idea, but sometimes it's difficult to tell when the semantics is changing and
when it isn't, in going from events to objects.

> The same can be said, but far less usefully, of the x1 place of bapli.  "mi
> bapli lenu broda" could mean that my mere existence forces something to
> happen, and maybe someone would want to say that, but the meaning isn't what
> you'd expect in a malglico word-for-word translation.  The danger of
> mistranslation there is a good reason not to list "object" as a possibility
> for the x1 place. An object is legal there but should only be used by
> trained professionals wearing certified safety equipment :-)

Again complete agreement. (Although, "my mere existence" is an event, and
there's no reason not to say that when you mean that: {le nu mi zasti}. But
I will agree that if you are forced to interpret {mi} as an event, {le nu
mi zasti} is the best choice.)

> I haven't been through the gismu list in great detail, and it might be that
> many of them don't fit my little theory.

If the data don't fit a good theory, then surely there's something wrong
with the data.  :)

> Your other example, "spuda",
> doesn't seem to fit.  If there are lots more of these we'll either have to
> change the gismu list or ask la kris. to change his theory :-)

Or learn to live with exceptions. I don't think there are many more, I had to
look for a while to find {spuda}, but probably there are some others.


> 7.1)    ko ga'inai nenri klama le mi zdani
>         you-imperative [low-rank!] enter type-of come-to my house.
>         Honorable one, enter my unworthy house.
> -----------------
>
> Something should be reworded here, because the example is not consistent
> with Japanese usage; in Japanese you'd attatch the cmavo indicating high
> rank to "ko", and a particle meaning low-rank to "zdani"

You're right. The mistranslation seems to be from the Loglish to the
English, in this case. To get the English expression I suppose it should
be
        ko ga'i nenri klama le mi zdani ga'inai


Jorge