Re: TEXT: le gunse ku joi le lorxu

[Dylan Thurston <dpt@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>]

On Thu, 11 May 1995, Goran Topic wrote:
> coi fi'i ro do poi cnino

.io coi ki'e ro do poi slabu

(Wow, there are a lot of attitudinals.)

so'ilo djuspu cu selvimcu

> > > .i le gunse cu spusku lu lei me mi pu se jukpa .i mi glare jukpa ri
> > > le nu nerpu'i rori le toknu .i e'u ko jukpa lei me do .i aupei mi
> > > bregau le toknu sei le gunse cu cusku li'u

> > Shouldn't the paragraph be marked with {ni'o}?
>
> Paragraphs can be marked with ni'o or no'i, but apart from resetting the
> variables it does not have some great semantics in a logical context.
> Simply - not often needed, except for convenience, IMHO...

{ki'e ku'i ju'ocu'i} I was referring to the principle that all
typographic distinctions (chapter headings, for example) should be
reflected in the phonetics.  I think this is a somewhat silly principle,
anyway (for instance, while it's noble to try to make mathematical
expressions speakable, it's totally infeasible for expressions of any
complexity.  I saw a Ph.D. thesis on speaking equations for the blind
recently; see
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/raman/aster/demo.html)

> vi lo lalxe in the second sentence is one sumti, and it goes into its
> own place, which vi opened up for it in the structure. See? And ti means
> THIS HERE; not only for physical objects, but can also refer to anything
> that is close to the speaker in space-time, including locations and
> moments.
>
> > Can one person {klama ru'u le toknu} (come around the oven)?
>
> Think: Go, around the oven (circle the oven). klama does not mean come.
> It means to go from/to/through/by. None of these were specified, so we
> can translate is just nice with go. Come is a good translation if you
> have the destination, but if not it is very misleading. (mi klama ti - I
> come here (I go to here), but mi klama is just - I go.)

OK, right.  {klama ru'u le toknu} means "to go from one place to another
in the area around the oven", to be pedantic.  See my response to
xorxes.

> > > .i ki'unai le nu lei lorpanzi cu dunku klaku kei le lorxu na jundi ra
> > > gi'e nerpu'i ra le toknu .ibabo ua co'a spoja fa lei betfu be lei
> > > lorpanzi .i roroi ca le nu lo betfu cu spoja kei le lorxu cu sruri
> > > klama gi'e gleki cusku lu paboi li'u fa'ubo lu reboi li'u fa'ubo
> > > lu ciboi li'u fa'ubo lu voboi li'u fa'ubo lu muboi li'u
> >
> > Now's a good a time as any to inquire about the distinction {lo} vs.
> > {le}.  Why is it, e.g., {lei betfu} in the second line but {lo betfu} in
> > the third?
>
> co'a spoja lo betfu   means   For each of the stomacks, it began
> exploding. That depicts five separate processes of exploding, each of
> which is at the beginning point.
>
> co'a spoja loi betfu   means   The stomacks began exploding. That means
> there is one process, which is really a series of explosions of various
> stomacks, which is now beginning.

Very good.  I like this explanation for the difference between {lo} and
{loi} (which was also confusing).  But I was asking about the difference
between {le} and {lo} (which seems to parallel the difference between
{lei} and {loi}).  I didn't quite follow xorxes' explanation:

> In the other case, I could have said {pa le betfu} instead of
> {lo betfu}, but I preferred the shorter one. In any case, I want
> to individuate them: Every time, that _one_ of the belies explodes...

Does {lo} imply singularity?  I would think that either {le betfu} or
{lo betfu} could refer to one or more than one stomach, the only
difference being whether the things actually are stomachs or only
described that way.

> The focus of the narrative here is not IMHO on the series of explosions
> of each of the stomacks, but on the point in time when the heat reached
> the level when the stomacks began exploding. (Umm, this got much more
> muddled than I thought. I think I'll let somebody else explain this
> one.)

Yes, I don't follow.  It seems like {co'a spoja fa le betfu} would be
slightly wrong, since the explosions don't all happen at once.  Is this
what you're trying to say?

How does {co'a spoja fa lei betfu ba le lorpanzi} stack up?

> lo is veridical and indefinite (more or less, I think that's the
> consensus, right?), meaning that it roughly works like indefinite article
> in English, and also says "this thing that is REALLY...". So, you can't
> really say lo crida because there aren't any around. (Well, this is also
> more complicated than that... But we have been arguing about it for months
> and it cant well be explained in one post... least of all by me.)

Let me voice a premature opinion.  Saying {lo crida} makes just as much
sense as {le fetygunse ku joi le fetlorxu cu tavla simxu}; neither can
be true in this world, but could be used in a story (or, I suppose, by
someone that believes in the referents).  {le crida} would be used to
refer to actors playing fairies, but if you're going to write about
fairies, you might as well use {lo crida}.

ke'u so'ilo djuspu cu selvimcu

> > > .ibabo ly tcefengu gi'e cusku lu ai mi ba sudgau le lalxe li'u .i ly
> > > pinxe ce'o pinxe mu'i le nu sudgau le lalxe .i ku'i ki'unai le nu
> > > mutce pinxe na snada le nu sudgau le lalxe .i le ly betfu ba'o plana
> > > binxo .i ly darkla ca'o le nu cirko lo djacu ra'i le trixe .i ly
> > > jdesku lu o'i e'u ju'i kinli pezli ko na batci mi li'u
> >
> > Could {le ly betfu ba'o plana binxo} also be written {le ly betfu ba'o
> > plana} or {le ly betfo ba'o binxo (lo/le) plana}?
>
> le ly. betfu ba'o plana binxo   means   The fox's stomack finished
> getting bloated (and the fox is fat).
>
> le ly. betfu ba'o plana   means   The fox's stomack finished being
> bloated (and the fox is fat no more).
>
> le ly. betfo ba'o binxo lo/le plana   means   The fox's stomack finished
> becoming a/the bloated thing. The lo variant corresponds to the given
> sentence pretty closely, though neither quite capture the whole sense of
> the English sentence (i.e. the stomack is now a bloated thing, but not
> necessarily a stomack any more. ...
> The le variant is not what you want, because of its
> definiteness, i.e. There is this thing you know of that you'd describe
> as fat and that is what fox's stomack has turned into. (compare English:
> The cocoon turned into THE new butterfly. How does that sound?)

Good!  I think this answers my query about {lo} vs. {le}

> > The meaning of the last two sentences seems very weird to me.  Is
> > "The fox dared to go while she was losing water from her back.  She
> > cried out in warning, 'Be careful!  Sharp leaf, don't cut me!'" a
> > correct translation?  Where's the fox going?  What on earth is a {kinli
> > pezli}?
>
> Doesn't really matter, I guess. The point is, she actually WALKED with
> all that water in her (or maybe driven a car, but I sincerely doubt that).
> I guess your translation is correct, 'cause I translated the same way.
> I'd say cactus needle, or agave (is that how it's called in English?) or
> something such.

As Jorge pointed out, {dar} is the rafsi for {darno}, 'far'.  "Agave" is
in my dictionary, although I'm not familiar with the plant.

> > > .i badri je klaku klama fo le cmana .ize'iku lo kilpezli ly batci
> > > .i zo pof .i ly spoja

.i ke'u.uanai ma badri je klaku klama
NOTE: this is my question, not part of the text.

> > fo'e mi'e. dilyn. trs,ton.
>
> fa'o, maybe? Yes, I guess so...

No, I meant {fe'o}.  It would be ungrammatical to have anything after
{fa'o}, right?  (Talk about useless cmavo.)

> co'o doi dilyn. mi'e. goran.
>
> --
> Learn languages! The more langs you know, the more incomprehensible you can
 get
>
 e'udoCILreleiBANgu.izo'ozo'onairoBANguteDJUnobedocubanRI'a.ailekadonaka'eSELjmi
reformatting:

e'u do cilre lei bangu .i zo'o zo'onai ro bangu te djuno be do cu
banri'a .ai le ka do na ka'e seljmi

Clever (especially getting them both 79 columns).  But:

Should the first {do} be {ko}?

And do you want the {do} in the x3 place of {bangu te djuno}?  i.e.,
...{ro bangu te djuno be fi do}...

I don't understand the use of {banri'a} rather than just {rinka}.

The x2 of jimpe is a fact, not a person.  Shouldn't it be {le ka ma do
na ka'e seljmi}?  ({ma do} standing for {le do selsku} or {le do te
djuno}.)

co'o mi'e dilyn.  TRS,ton.


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