Re: tenses

[ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>]

Goran:
> I would be very hard pressed to find an event that sa'e has no end.

True for "events" in the English sense, but not in the Lojban sense,
where "events" can be nondynamic. A nu that has no end is {nu bao
broda}.

Jorge:
> > IAd have thought {ca puo broda} means "now is the run-up to brodaing",
> > but my cmaste has {capuo}="has been", so IAm a bit confused on this
> > one.
> The cmaste has {capu'o} and {bapu'o} backwards.
> Actually, it has them as they should be defined but not as they are
> defined.

I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong. Are there typos in the
cmaste?

A gloss like "has been" seems rather unwise, given the trickiness of
the meaning of the English perfect.

> > I agree iff {puo} modifies the selbri, so that the meaning is
> > "puo-farlu(le bolci)", and not "farlu(le bloci)" - so that
> > puo-farlu(b) does not entail farlu(b).
> That's how I understand it, yes. You can talk of {lo pu'o farlu},
> which is not a kind of {lo farlu}, so it makes sense.

And is that how you understand every ZAhO?

> > {coa citka pa plise} entails that there is an apple and that this
> > apple is eaten.
> Only that it starts to be eaten, I think.

Only if {coa citka pa plise} doesn't entail {citka pa plise}. I think
you think it indeed doesn't.

> > Assuming {citka} means "consume", {cou citka pa plise} must mean
> > {mou citka pa plise}.
> What's an example of {co'u broda} that doesn't mean {mo'u broda} then?

{se citka gie plise}, because there's no bounds to become complete.
{nu dahi citka pa plise} could be cou without being mou.

> > To Jorge & Lojbab: Imagine a church-facade with no church behind it.
> > In English, you can say "that is facade of a church", but in Lojban
> > you couldn;t say "ta flira lo malsi", because that says there is a
> > church such that that is its facade. You'd have to say {ta flira
> > lo dahi malsi}.
> I agree, but this has nothing to do with tenses.

Do you mean ZAhO, by "tenses"? ZAhO semantically express aspect
rather than tense.

> I am not saying "this is the start of an event of my eating an apple".
> I only say "I start eating an apple". There is an apple, there is me,
> and the relationship between those two is that one starts to eat the
> other.

Okay. I think I've misunderstood ZAhO. I thought {coa citka pa plise}
does mean "this is the start of an event of my eating an apple".

> > Now, imagine the act of counting to ten, {nu kacporsi li pano}.
> > If {nu kacporsi li pano} then it must also be that {nu coa kacporsi
> > li pano} and {nu mou kacporsi li pano} and {nu cou kacporsi li
> > pano}.
> Depends what you mean by the tensless claim. But even if that is true,
> the inverse doesn't hold. If {nu co'a porkancu li pano} then not
> necessarily {nu mo'u porkancu li pano}.

Again, only if {coa broda} doesn't entail {broda}. I have come round
to your way of seeing things, & feel that it is better for ZAhO broda
not to entail broda.

> > p.s. RE: Chris on {dahi} & {rua}: I agree with everything Kris says,
> > & retract anything necessary.
> Was this a post to the whole list? I don't remember reading anything
> that fits with that.

Yes. I said that some of Chris's uses of {dahi} should be {rua}, &
he correctly pointed out that I was mistaken.

---
And