[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: TECH: lambda and "ka" revisited

mi joi la kris. cusku be di'e casnu

> >> Looking at things this way, then, {le [ka da de xe'u da pendo de]} would be
> >> identical in meaning to {le pendo}, and {le SE [ka da de xe'u da pendo de]}
> >> would mean {le SE pendo}, which strongly conflicts with my current
> >> understanding of how {leka} is used.
> >
> >Not at all.
> OK, as you said "modulo the syntax of lambda" -- then I should have said:
>    le anti-ka-thingy [ka da de xe'u da pendo de] <--> le pendo

Yes.  By my new proposal (still controversial), "anti-ka-thingy" is "ckaji".

> >"jei" is probably 0-adic also, and is related to "du'u", which is now
> >understood as a subtype of "ka" that is always 0-adic.
> I'd propose we define {jei} as {du'u xukau}.  AFAIK it would be consistent
> with usage, at least my usage before xorxes convinced me to switch over to
> {du'u xukau} :-)

Essentially correct, except that:

> Here's a shot in the dark: I used to use {ni} and {jei} and don't anymore;
> when I did, in my mind they were more or less synonymous except that {jei}
> suggested that the implied {xukau} would have a binary value, and {ni}
> emphasized a fuzzy value:
>    mi djuno ledu'u le tsali cu blanu
>         I know that the sky is blue
>    mi djuno lejei le tsali cu blanu
>         I know whether or not the sky is blue
>    mi djuno leni le tsali cu blanu
>         I know how true it is that the sky is blue  --> how blue the sky is

Your "ni" is actually "jei"; truth values can be sharp or fuzzy, but in
either case "jei" is the right thing.  A definition based directly on
"xukau" doesn't allow for fuzzy returns, unless we grant that "xu" can
be answered with a fuzzy answer (we have no direct way of mentioning
the fuzzy predicates that define fuzzy sets).

Anyhow, none of this is equivalent to historic "ni" (Loglan "zo"), although
I must admit that however difficult JCB's remarks on "ka" (Loglan "pu"),
his remarks on "ni" are worse.  Often he seems to simply substitute
"amount of" for "property of" or "event of" mechanically into sentences,
both exemplary and expositional, without considering whether or not he
is really making sense.

The one example that seems to mean something is, in Lojban words:

	ko'a ni ko'e blanu
	X is the amount of Y's being blue
	X is the amount of blue in Y

(L1 4th ed p. 128).  Presumably "ko'a" here is a number related to the
bridi "ko'e blanu", but how?

In NB3 (pp. 99-100), JCB writes (substituting Lojban for his Loglan):

# The designata of [ni] expressions [...] are simply numbers, and sometimes
# uninteresting numbers at that.  While the amount of heat in this room,
# and the amount of blue in that painting, may well be interesting
# numbers, [le ni ko'a mabru fetrorci ko'e ko'i] is not.  How shall
# we measure that quantity of mammalian motherhood as it relates to three
# specified individuals?  Give it one if it obtains between them, zero
# otherwise?  [This is "jei", which JCB doesn't have as such.]  Not a
# fruitful enterprise.  If one or more of the three required participants
# remains undesignated, however [this is lambdacation], the the number
# [le ni ko'e mabru fetrorci], the amount of mammalian motherhood in which
# X is involved, for example, might have some interest.
# In short, the [ni] abstraction is the least widely applicable of the
# three abstractions [nu, ka, ni].  [ni] is useful only with those properties
# or relations which science has managed to quantify in some way.  Thus,
# until we know how to measure the blueness of a painting [why not?]
# or the motherness of an animal, [le ni ta blanu] and [le ni ta mamta]
# will have designata we will not know how to find.  [But how does the
# "amount of heat in a room" get attached to "le kumfa cu glare", if that
# is indeed the bridi JCB has in mind -- he doesn't say.]

Sidebar:  the Loglan word I have translated "fetrorci" above is in fact "matma".
The languages have drifted in place structure:  Lojban "mamta" means "x1
is a mother to x2 in mode x3", whereas JCB's "matma" has always officially
referred to biological motherhood, and has places "x1 is the dam of x2
by sire x3", which is a concept we handle with "rorci", for which JCB
has no direct equivalent.

John Cowan					cowan@ccil.org
		e'osai ko sarji la lojban.