Re: TECH: masses & discussers

[Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>]

And:
> By the sounds of things, the x1 of casnu is a group/team/collectivity,
> and not a mass.

In my opinion, a "mass" in Lojban _is_ a group/team/collectivity.

> As we've already had numerous nuncasnu about the nature
> of masses, none of which have in the long term persuaded me that so-called
> masses in Lojban are clearly or consistently understood (issues of
> individuation, instantiation and countability, appear to be confused with
> issues of collectivity and distributivity;

For me, the difference between what is called in Lojban "mass" and
what is called "individual" is precisely collectivity vs. distributivity.

I don't think that countability is marked in any special way.
{lei re prenu} is three people collectively, and {le re prenu} is
three people distributively, i.e. each of three people. Both refer
to "countables". {le djacu} is "each of the quantities of water", and
{lei djacu} is "the quantities of water collectively". They are
uncountable in the sense that if you put two quantities of water together
you may end up with a single (a new one) quantity of water. But
countability is not marked in any special way in Lojban. We should not
confuse what we call "mass" with that.

I would say that {lo'e} has to do with instantiataion. ({lo'e broda}
would be -instantiatable, the others are +instantiatable.)

> among various standard
> examples, e.g. beer-drinking chicagoans, piano carriers, coloured balls,
> I see no common factors),

The piano carriers are the mass:

        lei ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno
        The three men carry the piano.

Uninstantiated chicagoans drink uninstantiated beer:

        lo'e tcadrcikago prenu cu pinxe lo'e birje
        Chicagoans drink beer.

As opposed to:

        loi tcadrcikago prenu cu pinxe lo'e birje
        Some Chicagoans drink beer.
        (There are some Chicagoans that are beer drinkers.)

        lo tcadrcikago prenu cu pinxe lo'e birje
        Some Chicagoans drink beer.
        (There is at least one Chicagoan that is a beer drinker.)

        loi tcadrcikago prenu cu pinxe loi birje
        Some Chicagoans drink some beer.
        (There are some Chicagoans and there are some quantities
        of beer such that the Chicagoans drink them.)

        lo tcadrcikago prenu cu pinxe lo birje
        Some Chicagoans drink some beer.
        (There is at least one Chicagoan and at least one quantity
        of beer such that the Chicagoan drinks it.)


> rather than starting another thread, I would
> ask to be directed to the most pertient discussions in the refgrammar
> papers.

Oops!

Jorge