tech:opaque

["John E. Clifford" <pcliffje@CRL.COM>]

and (on pc):
> . I think it
> would be very nice indeed if there were no gismu that had opaque places
> except those that took full lenu (etc.) sumti.
That is indeed, I believe, the current situation as far as the design
goes, though not as far as usage goes.
pc:
Did I miss a major revision?  My dictionary file still has _kalte_ as
 "x1 hunts x2," with no indication that x2 is transparent.  To be
sure, there is not indication that x2 is opaque, either, but, since it is
in "hunt" in English, feel free to carry that over, else some other
translation would be used or at least indicated. But, truth to tell, I
can't think of a translation that is reasonably like "hunt" but has a
transparent x2.  It is part of the notion of hunting that I may not
find and that, generally, I do not care what I find, so long as it is
the right sort of thing, both of which militate against transparency
of any kind of _lo/loi_ expression at x2.  For, unlike the case of  "I
will kill a deer," which is false if I don't and whose preposed
existential is instantiated with the one I get if I do, "I will hunt a
deer" may be true even if I never see one and have no one even in
mind as I tramp the woods, so that "There is a deer I will hunt"
turns out false.

I can do English "hunt" in Lojban without _kalte_, but I cannot see how to
do _kalte_ in English, if x2 is transparent.  Nor can I imagine why we
would want such a word -- and a gismu at that!  I don't know of a use for
it, except those special cases (already covered by other means) when we
want external reference in opaque slots, when there is a specific deer I
am hunting (Ol' Snagglehorn) or I have a guarantee of success (past tense
references to successful hunts, for example -- but how did we talk of even
those hunts before we went out?). And this applies to all the old opaque
words other than those that take full bridi arguments?  We can only paint
pictures of real scenes?  We can only look for things we are sure to find
( Jesus' assurance seems less inspirinig in Lojban)?  Even are dream girl
must be the one down the block?  Well, not quite, of course, because we
can say the right thing eventually, but to get there we have to mow
through a mass of things we never use except at the bottom of heaped
_lenu_ clauses. Hawk (I omit the correct spelling here since it is the
vilest insult in Klingon and I do not want to embarrass Nick) ptui!

pc>|83