Re: abstractor place structures

[JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

Lojbab:
 >> >>                lei va mlatu cu klani li paci le ka kancu
>>>>                Those cats are in quantity 13 as counted.
>>>Why not just use kancu as the selbri?
>>Because it has a place x1 for the counter which I didn't want.
>Butsince you have used kansu in your version, the counter is still
>required.  kancu that is.  ka kancu still has the counter place.

Yes, but it's abstracted out, not as an argument of the main selbri.
If you prefer:

                        lei va mlatu cu klani li paci le kamselkancu


>I can imagine  ni mlatu be fi lo selci (be loi mlatu) woulfd be a klani
>whose x2 is the count.

mlatu be fi lo selci?

You must have mistyped something.

>But I would prefernot to stretch klani/ni to be used
>for counts of objects.

How do you interpret the "enumerated by x2" bit in the gi'uste
definition of klani?

>I am willing to have a count always to imply a counter.

That's fine. I am not, and so I look for ways to say in Lojban
what I want to say.

 >> But I don't want to talk about
>>someone doing measurements. I want a word like mitre,
>>grake, and all the other measure words that don't talk of
>>a measurer.
>Measurement is relative to a measurer in Lojban, it appears.

Not true for all the gismu measure words.  I expect to
be able to form lujvo with place structures parallel to those.

 >mitre and
>the like are units (gradu),

If you mean {ro mitre cu gradu} then I disagree.

>and I intended, back before people got hung up
>on place structure conventions, that new measurement units would be lujvo
>based on gradu.

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that because that's
what you intended back then we should avoid any rational analysis?
How do you use {gradu} to say "the sugar is 3 in cups", in a way that
parallels {le sakta cu grake li xanono} for "the sugar is 600 in grams"?

This brings to my mind something that occured to me some time ago.
What goes in the middle of this series:

kilto       x1 is a thousand [1x10**3] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
xecto    x1 is a hundred [1x10**2] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
dekto   x1 is ten [1x10**1] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
?????   x1 is one [1x10**0] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
decti     x1 is a tenth [1x10**-1] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
centi     x1 is a hundredth [1x10**-2] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
milti      x1 is a thousandth [1x10**-3] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3

I thought that {gradu} might fit there nicely in the middle:

gradu     x1 is a unit of x2 measuring property x3

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co'o mi'e xorxes