Re: knowledge and belief

["Jorge J. Llambías" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

cu'u la markl
>> > It _often_ happens that a pragmatically minded person will
>> > use "know" in English for an assertion, the truth value of
>> > which is uncertain.
>>
>> You mean that the person who said that someone knows X
>> will not also think that X is true? Can you give examples?
>
>I mean that many people will say that someone knows X when
>they are not sure that X is true.

That's different. They may not be sure but they're taking it
as true for that claim. At least you agree that they will not say
that someone knows X if they think that X is not true.

> Examples from English:

Several of your examples contain indirect questions. In those
cases, the truth assumption is very much reduced. All that is
required is that there be a true answer. If I say:

            la djan djuno le du'u xukau la lojbab klama le zarci
            John knows whether lojbab goes to the market.

the presuposition is that {xu la lojbab klama le zarci} has
a true answer, and my claim is that John knows that answer.
There is no presupposition that I know the answer.

>  You know you want me, so why not admit it?
>    - many sources

The speaker presupposes (perhaps facetiously) that
"you want me" is true. If the presupposition is false,
the appropriate response in Loban is {na'i}, rather
than "No, I didn't know that I want you, thank you
for informing me".

>  I know you wanna leave me,
>  but I refuse to let you go.
>    - sung by Marvin Gaye

The presupposition is "you wanna leave me".
Would you really accept something like: "I'm not sure
whether it is true that you wanna leave me, but I know
you wanna leave me." It doesn't sound normal to me.

>  It ain't what you don't know that worries me;
>  it's what you do know that ain't so.
>    - several sources

That's an indirect question.

>  All I know is what I read in the papers.
>    - Will Rogers

Is there any indication that he doesn't think that what
he knows is true? Which one of these sounds better:

"I know that O.J. did it because I read it in the paper,
so O.J. must have done it."

"I know that O.J. did it because I read it in the paper,
but I'm not sure whether he did it."

>  Everybody knows that O.J. was the killer.
>    - many sources

And those sources don't think that O.J. was the killer?
Do you really find acceptable something like "Everybody
knows that O.J. was the killer, but maybe he wasn't."

>  Everything you know is wrong.
>    - Firesign Theatre

That's a nice example! I have to think more about it, it's the
first where there doesn't seem to be a presupposition of truth.
Maybe the fact that quantifiers are involved is significant.


>  I know it's only rock'n'roll, but I like it.
>    - sung by the Rolling Stones

Presupposition: "it's only rock'n'roll". You wouldn't
accept "I'm not sure whether it's only rock'n'roll, but
I know it's only rock'n'roll", would you?

>  I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
>    - attributed to Socrates

Presupposition: "the fact of my ignorance".

>  I am the Master of Balliol College,
>  and what I don't know isn't knowledge.
>    - anonymous

Does he not presuppose that what he does know
is true?

>  Teilhard knew the Piltdown fossil was a fake,
>  and may have known who the faker was; but he
>  died without revealing what he knew.
>    - several sources

Presupposition: the Piltdown fossil was a fake.
The other two are indirect questions.

>In each of these English examples, we remain uncertain
>about either the content of the known, &or the accuracy
>of that content, &or the truth of the claim that the
>content really is known to the person or persons
>identified as knowing it.

All that we're discussing is whether the claimant
presupposes the truth of what is supposedly known.
In all those cases except in "all you know is wrong"
I find that there is a presupposition of truth.

> Despite our uncertainty, we
>often use the word "know", or some variant thereof, in
>statements like these, at least in English.  Similar
>usages probably occur also in other natlangs.

All of those would be translatable more or less word
for word into Spanish using "saber", yes. And also into
Lojban using {djuno}, don't you agree?

co'o mi'e xorxes