Re: Summary so far on DJUNO

["Jorge J. Llambías" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

>   > ...  you, the listener or reader, know what
>   > standard/epistemology/metaphysics x2 the speaker is using, and if
>   > not, the speaker would be willing to fill in the x2 place.
>
>   But isn't that what happens with every word?
>
>Well, no.  Not with {fatci}, unless they go to some effort, using one
>of the BAI modals.  {fatci} does not have a built-in place for the
>epistemology, so the language-imposed assumption is that speaker and
>listener already share and understanding.

Right, that's what I meant. Lots of words don't have a built-in
place for the metaphysics, so as speaker you must share some
understanding with the listener. Using jetnu without filling in
the x2 place is very much like using fatci: you rely on a common
world view. If there is disagreement, then it will have to be sorted
out, perhaps using a BAI modal.

But even if every word had a place for the metapphysics, that
wouldn't help much, because we still would need a common
meta-metaphysics to recognize whether the claim about
the metaphysics was true.

>   When someone uses the word {fatci}, that doesn't mean that
>   they believe that there is a truth and they know it.
>
>Well, according to the definition, that is the case (unless they are
>being ironical, fuzzy, or lying). It is very straightforward.

No, I meant that they don't have to know what is the truth. I thought
my example was clear:

            mi na djuno ro fatci la lojban
            I don't know all facts about Lojban.

That's an example of a use of {fatci} where the speaker does not
know the facts in question.

The speaker might even not know whether there is a fact at all, as
was the case in the translation that originated this subthread:

        i mi krici le du'u jinvi le du'u le nuzba be fi la ia'us cu fatci
        I believed that it is opined that news from Yahoo are facts.

So using the word {fatci} does not at all require that one believe
that there is a truth, and much less to know that truth.

co'o mi'e xorxes