Re: Summary so far on DJUNO

[And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>]

Rob Zook:
> >Presuppositions and the x4 place apart, "djuno" means "x1
> >believes x2 to be true about x3".
>
> Absolutely not. Krici means belief, djuno means know.

The meaning of {krici} isn't relevant.

Djuno means "know". This is what I said from the start.
Presuppositions apart, "know" means "x1 believes x2 to be
true". (Or possibly "believes, with justification": that's
a separate issue.)

> krici:
> x1 believes [without evidence] that belief/creed x2 (du'u) is
> true/assumed about subject x3
>
> djuno:
> x1 knows fact(s) x2 (du'u) about subject x3 by epistemology x4
>
> You apparently want to re-write djuno.

I don't know how you work that out.

> >To me, an "epistemology" place would give "Because of x4, x1 believes
> >x2 to be true about x3", i.e. the reason for the believing,
>
> Believing does not mean the same thing as knowing. A person can
> "believe" any damn thing they want to. I can belief I can fly, or
> that the sky is purple, or that cows produce Guiness Extra Stout from
> their teats. A person can only "know" _facts_. I cannot "know" cows
> produce Guiness Extra Stout from their teats. For that does not
> represent a true fact in any system of knowing facts.
>
> One can only know justified true beliefs. Anything else distorts
> the meaning of "know". Regardles of the many ways one can use
> know in English. djuno means to know facts.

"Knowing" is what we call believing when the belief is justified
and true. All knowing is believing.

This is perfectly compatible with what you say about the meaning
of "know".

> >while the intention for the x4 is that is be X in
> >"X1 believes that because of x4, x2 is true about x3", i.e.
> >x4 is the worldmodel according to which x2 is true.
>
> Rewrite both your statements as:
>
> In of system of knowledge x4, x1 knows true fact(s) x2, about x3.
> x1 knows true fact(s) x2 about subject x3 in system of knowing x4.
>
> and I would agree.

I think you ignored the words "presuppositions and the x4 place
apart".

> >To my mind, "metaphysics" is vague, but "epistemology" is
> >positively misleading.
>
> I must disagree most emphatically.

But you do so without addressing my justification for claiming
"epistemology" to be misleading. Hence I am not sure whether we
disagree in our understanding of what "epistemology" means or in our
understanding of what the x4 of djuno means.

--And