Re: *malglico and misc queries

[cowan (John Cowan)]

la deiv. kortesis. cusku di'e:
> I didn't believe it was possible in Lojban to slap "mal" on the front of
> something and make a pejorative out of it.  It's too latinate and/or
> esperantish....

> So I pulled out the word lists for the first time in months...
> First, there is a gismu malbe, rafsi mal, meaning "x is derogatory of y"
> or such. As near as I can tell, a description of x, not an assertion
> that x is deserving of derogation.  So "malglico" means a derogatory
> kind of English culture (?)

Just so.  The actual place structure of mabla is:

	x1 is a derogative connotation of x2 as used by x3

> The simplest way I could find of saying what Ivan and Robert(?) meant was
> 	"bad english metaphor" = xlali glico tanru = xlagictan

You can't use CVC-type rafsi at the end of a compound, because brivla
cannot end in consonants.  You have to use the uncollapsed form ending
in "-tanru".

> This has the advantage of SOUNDING like a curse. (Say it! Then wipe
> your screen off!)  But it isn't accurate.  What I want here is something
> other than simple left-to-right modification. I want
> 	(bad because English) kind of tanru
> Can somebody who understands sumti connectives help me out here?

"mabla" exists precisely because "xlali" doesn't do the job here.  "xlali"
means "x1 is bad for purpose x2 by standard x3" and is >not< derogatory.
It is not a derogation of a fork to say it is bad as a spoon.

"mabla" and its antonym "zabna" (rafsi "zan" and "za'a") exist precisely
to make curses (and praises) possible.  In Lojbanistan, we do not derogate
someone by calling him (say) a pig; instead we use a descriptive term
such as "pulji" and prefix it with "mabla" or "mal-".

> In the course of finding this I ran off down the following dead-end alleys
> and would appreciate anybody's comments on how to escape them...
> 
> How to say: habit and/or habitual.
> How to say: customary.  tcaci = custom; is it enough to use the quality
> 		abstractor ka?  Is katcaci = customary?

Habit and custom are the same gismu:  tcaci.  You would say "customary" by
using this gismu in a tanru:  a habitual walker = lo tcaci cadzu

> How to say: cultural, x springs from culture y. Here ka kulnu is clearly
> 		not adequate.

lo se kulnu are the people who exhibit a culture.

> How to say: tilt, as in x tilts/leans at angle y in frame z

salpo = "x1 is sloped/inclined with angle x2 to horizon/frame x3"

> How to say: bias, as in x is biased/directed/influenced in direction y by
> 		applied force z

I'm not sure if the physical or the metaphorical sense of bias is wanted here.
For the latter, se xlura = "x1 is influenced by x2 to do or be x3
under conditions x4" seems to do the trick.

> How to say: tend, as in x tends toward y (naturally, of itself)
> How to say: thoughtless. Negation of sanji=aware? And then abstracted?
> How to say: unwise. Negation of prije and abstracted?

No need to abstract here.  Abstraction corresponds to things like "-ness"
and "-ity".  lo na'e prije = an unwise person; lo na'e prije cusku =
unwise statements.  "Thoughtless" has several English meanings, I think.

> And here's a biggie: how do you say idiom? An idiom is not simply a
> metaphor, it's a metaphor that through constant usage has lost its
> metaphoric indirection and simply means what it originally suggested.
> (Like red herring.)

We don't have those in Lojban.  :-)

-- 
cowan@snark.thyrsus.com		...!uunet!cbmvax!snark!cowan
		e'osai ko sarji la lojban