Re: The culture gismu

["Ivan Derzhanski" <cbmvax!uunet!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!iad>]

I wanted to raise this question myself.  I procrastinated under the
pretext of being too busy, but now that other people have spoken up,
I'll join the show.

>From: jimc@math.ucla.edu

:Somewhat agreeing with Arthur Protin: despairing of covering adequately
:the enormous range of cultures, religions, nations, etc., I suggest that
:the whole lot be chucked and that le'avla be required for them.

I support this proposal.  Even if it is not officially accepted,
I already see myself boycotting them.

:How would you feel if your native culture were left out?  Particularly if
:your arch-rival had a gismu?

I don't know how many lojbanis and lojbanis-to-be are there whose native
cultures are left out in the cold, but I happen to be one, and I say that
it is a very unpleasant feeling.

The Synopsis says: "The most important of these words [klogi'u. - I.D.]
are the klogi'u representing the major cultures, languages, nations, and
religions of the world."  Who the hell has the right to proclaim some
cultures major to others?  Bulgaria has contributed quite a bit to the
treasury of world culture in the last thirteen centuries.  So what if
there are only eight millions of us?

Re the arch-rival, I suppose the Greeks would qualify (we have fought
innumerable wars, as have done all neighbours in Europe).  Now I see no
logic (and Lojban is supposed to contain at least _some_ of this stuff!)
in the asymmetry which arises when, say, one of the two Balkanic tongues
should be called {le xelbau} and the other {le bangu po loi nairbylgaria}
(N.N., p.c.).

Now before someone says "this guy is being bilious because he is personally
offended", well, I may be to a certain extent, but I won't be satisfied if
I get a gismu (which won't happen).  I may speak for the Koreans next time.

Nick said that cultural names should be gismuified because they are used
in many a tanru.  When I think of cultural tanrus, one of the first things
that comes to my mind is "Persian carpet".  Let's see.  Iran is a huge
country, which has been there for at least two millennia and and a half.
Speaking of culture, the classical Persian poetry is second to nothing I
have ever heard of.  Lo and behold, Iran is not on the list, yet half a
dozen Arab countries are (but, mind you, _not_ all of them).

Or how about the Turks?  Not just the Turkish nation (although it sure as
hell deserves at least as much as Morocco), but the whole mass of Turkic
people who inhabit a large part of Asia, going deep into Siberia.  How
are they minor to the Semites?

Why is the Scottish nationality on the list, but not the Irish or the Welsh
one?  What are we going to call Swahili, a language with many times more
speakers than Hebrew?  Aren't the Georgians going to reach for their daggers
if they see themselves brought under the "Soviet culture" umbrella?

etc. etc. etc. ad nauseatum.  So what shall we do?

:		-- jimc

- Ivan

P.S.  BTW, it is Urdu, not Urdi.

And the word {baxso} for Malay-Indonesian culture/nation is a big mystery.
"Bahasa", a word of Sanskrit origin, means simply `language'.  Any language.

Ivan A. Derzhanski   iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu
MB 1766 / Brandeis University                    How do you know that this life
P.O.Box 9110 / Waltham, MA 02254-9110 / USA         isn't another world's hell?