Ideoms (WAS: Going to the bathroom)

[Major <cbmvax!uunet!pta.pyramid.com.au!major>]

dave@PRC.Unisys.COM writes:

> Actually, I wouldn't walk up to a stranger and say "I want to eat,"
> either.  The usual form is something more like "Could you tell me
> where to find a restaurant?"

The point I was making is that this is the usual form _in English_, it
might not be in another language. We must be very careful to avoid a
literal translation of an English ideom.

	"Are you capable of advising me of the
	location of a restaurant?"

The answer to this question (if taken literaly because it is not an
ideom in the listener's language) would be either yes or no combined
with a strange look for the person asking such a weird question.

> If the statement was heavily accented, however, I would assume a
> competent adult with a language barrier, assume that they simply
> didn't know words such as "restaurant", and treat it like a normal
> request to find a restaurant (or whatever was the obvious solution
> under the circumstances).

If the person asked you in flawless lojban you should make the
assumtion that they were suffering not from a language barrier but an
ideom barrier. If they asked you (in flawless lojban)

   "Where might I spend a penny?" (English euphemism)

They would probably be translating one of their ideoms into lojban and
want to be directed to a toilet (even a free one), not sent to any of
the numerous places willing to relieve them of their small change. If
you were being cooperative, you would direct them to a toilet, but
you should first politely correct their lojban: one should not use
ideoms from one's own native language in lojban conversation.

> While the American word "bathroom" may be a euphemism, there does
> not exist any more explicit word, and you simply have to accept 
> that American English and Australian English are different languages
> in this respect.

Absolutely. I try to remember to say "bathroom" when I am in the
US, similarly I would try to use the German word if I was in Germany.

I was only using US and Australian English as examples of languages
with different ideoms in order to warn people that ideoms are not
universal, not suggesting that there is anything wrong with using the
ideoms of a language when you are speaking that language.

One final thing: I am not saying that lojban should be purely literal;
It _should_ have ideoms. However they should be lojban ideoms, not
coded English (or Chinese or whatever) ones.

Major

EXERCISE:

Would you recognise these expressions if someone confronted you with
them in lojban:

   "Where is the room of the males?"
   "Where is the room for relaxing?"

They are asking for a men's room and a rest room respectively.