Lojban Names.

[Ivan A Derzhanski <cbmvax!uunet!COGSCI.ED.AC.UK!iad>]

As I see it, when I need to mention a place name for real in a Lojban
text, I'll use zoi or la'o quotes and the original spelling within.

The only alternative I deem plausible is to make cmene for places
from strings of PA-cmavo, representing the latitude and longitude of
cities, or of centres of masses of countries.

>  Date:     Wed, 11 Mar 1992 19:23:00 GMT
>  From: Julian Pardoe <jbdp@UK.CO.COMPULINK.CIX>
>
>  (Absolutely fixed mappings might
>  not be optimal.  We might conceivably map [y] to {i} (many languages do).
>  However, if language X has no [u] it would be better in some ways to map [y]
>  to {u}.)

Yes.  So what we need is to decide on the lojbanisation of every sound
of every language before we engage in the exercise.

>  However, I have grave doubts about the feasibility of following a strictly
>  phonetic "call it what the natives call it" approach <...>
>  I'd prefer a "let the natives decide what to call it"
>  approach.  Imposing a (from the point of language X) arbitrary distortion of
>  the phonemes in a name might to X-speakers seem just as high-handed as
>  imposing a name in a dead language.

Yes.  The problem is that, in order to l.t.n.d.w.t.c.i., we need to
catch a native and teach him a lesson about Lojban phonology before
asking him questions.

>  > By the way, the country's name is _Shqipe"ri_ <...>
>
>  I'm not sure about that.  Albanians often seem to add the defimite article
>  (-a in this case) to names.

Then we have to respect similar usage in other languages.  Nick, it's
actually {.i'atinas.}, not {.atinas.}, and (I think) {lysuis.}, not {suis.}.

>  What the natives want to call it [_sc._ Albania] in Lojban might
>  not be the same as what they call it in their own language.

It won't be anything until we have an Albanian Lojbanist.  In the
meantime we can agree to call Albania "Yonder Place".

>  > But definitively {london} over {lndn} <...>
>
>  > I'm on the side of {lndn}.  I'm not a native, but I know it for a fact
>  > that the natives don't call it "Lawn Dawn".
>
>  I'm more a less a native and I certainly don't call it {lndn}.  The closest
>  is probably {landn}, but it's not the way I pronounce it: my Lojban {a} is
>  too long and broad(?).

I map the six Lojban vowels to the six stressed Bulgarian vowels, and
I definitely don't hear my {a} in "London".  What I hear is {lyndn.}.
By the way, that's what I meant when I wrote that I voted for {lndn.}
- biased by the phonetics of my native language, which knows no
syllabic consonants, I haven't learned to make a distinction between
{yn}/{ny} and syllabic {n}.

>  I'd accept {london} though, because that fits in with the way I think
>  names should be done.

Well, I would pronounce very much unlike I pronounce "London" in
English - and I think I do that correctly.

>  Belgi"e is most like {belxi,y}, except that "g" is usually voiced
>  in Flemish.  (I believe it's unvoiced in some of the dialects spoken in the
>  Netherlands.)

And pretty close to "j" (glide {i}) before "i" in some dialects again.

>  makedoni,ia sloVEni,ia

makeDOni,ia

>  What have you got against [j]?  You seem to leave it out all over the place.
>  <...>  The distinction between {i,a} and {i,ia} may be slight to you but it
>  does exist.

Nick probably doesn't know that the [j] is there, and I would
pronounce {i,a} as {i,ia} anyway.

>  {.ukrai,ina}, {.ukra,ina}, {.ukrai,iina} or {.ukra,iina}?

{.ukra,iina}.

>  > xajistan - xajistana: la .erevan
>  > {xa,iistAn}.
>
>  It looked like {xaiastan} in my copy of "Sovetakan Hajastan".

My mistake.  It is either {xa,iastAn} or {.a,iastAn}, and I don't know
how to choose between the two.

>  {.ierevan}! Another missing [j].  (As far as I know, it's not just a
>  product of Russian transliteration.  <...>)

No, it is not.  It is there in the Armenian.

>  > It is _Roma^nia_, where _a^_ is the back counterpart of
>  > {i} alias the unrounded counterpart of {u}.  Make it {y}.
>
>  I believe the "o" is somewhat bogus, unstressed "o" having become "u" (and
>  being spelt as such) in Romanian.

I beg your pardon?  It is spelt as "o", and unstressed vowels are not
reduced in Rumanian.

>  The last part of the word is -{NI,ia}.  I guess {y}
>  is the best mapping for "^a" but Romanian does have a {y}: a-breve.

Yes, but here we have an a-circumflex.  Both will have to be mapped to {y}.

>  >  rusko - la moskvas. (Please, god, not mozgvas or moskfas!),
>
>  Well, if {moskfas} is what the system gives you {moskfas} is what you get --
>  whether it please God or not.

It is not what the system gives you.  It must be {mysVA}.

>  Let's hope this process is well advanced by the
>  time the UN decides to issue its first official documents in Lojban :-)

By the time this process is well advanced there will be no UN.

Ivan