Re: TEXT: le gunse ku joi le lorxu

[Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>]

coi fi'i ro do poi cnino

> On Sat, 29 Apr 1995 jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU wrote:
>
> > i le de'e lisri cu xe fanva lo spano xe fanva be fo le bangrxaimara
> First: what are the principles of formation of 'bangrxaimara'?
> Presumably that's 'language of the Aimaras', but I don't know where the
> 'rx' comes from.  (Incidentally, what is the English orthography for
> {aimaras}?)

That's something (incorrectly but traditionally) called le'avla (should
be borrowed words, but came out as borrower-words).  The point is, if
you want to make a new word from a foreign one, then you translate the
word wanted into lojban ortography, make sure it begins with a consonant
and ends with a vowel (xaimara - that's where x comes from), take the
gismu best classifying the concept (here:  the specific lang of the
Aimara can be classified as a bangu), change its last vowel into r and
stick it all together (bang+r+xaimaras).

> > i la aimaras cu ketco natmi i ri xabju la bolivias joi la perus
> > joi le berti be la tciles joi la arxentinas  i le bangrxaimara cu
> > mutce cinri  i mi pu tcidu lo piso'umei sera'a ra
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >                      le gunse ku joi le lorxu
> >
> > .i zuku zuku le fetygunse ku joi le fetlorxu cu tavla simxu .i le gunse
> > pu kansa lei ri panzi .i zutse loi rokci .ibabo le lorxu cu klama je
> > penmi gy .i ly cusku lu ua doi gunse ri'a ma lei do panzi ne tai
> > lo zunri cu melbi .i lei me mi na go'i .i ri gruzi .i au ri simsa
> > lei me do .i ta'i ma do cpacu lei panzi noi tai melbi li'u
>
> Out of curiousity, how would one rephrase the first bridi without using the
> tanru {tavla simxu}?
> {zunri} should be {zumri} and {gruzi} should be {grusi}, right?

.i zuku zuku le fetygunse ku joi le fetlorxu cu simxu lenu tavla

> > .i le gunse cu spusku lu lei me mi pu se jukpa .i mi glare jukpa ri
> > le nu nerpu'i rori le toknu .i e'u ko jukpa lei me do .i aupei mi
> > bregau le toknu sei le gunse cu cusku li'u
>
> It strikes me as a bit odd to repeat 'le gunse cu cusku', but it's
> properly marked.
>
> Shouldn't the paragraph be marked with {ni'o}?

Paragraphs can be marked with ni'o or no'i, but apart from resetting the
variables it does not have some great semantics in a logical context.
Simply - not often needed, except for convenience, IMHO...

> > .i lu ausai ko zbasu le toknu sei le lorxu cu cusku .i ta'i ma cu zbasu
> > le toknu .i xu me ti li'u .i ly lebna loi bliku mu'i le nu zbasu
>                                   ^^^^^
> > le toknu  .ibabo ly glagau ce'o glagau le toknu ja'e le nu ri mutce
> > glare
>
> Is {lebna} really right here?  From the gismu list, {lebna} has an x3
> place, the person x2 is taken from; 'seize' seems to be the closest
> English equivalent.  Wouldn't {cpacu} be better?
> (I also recently noticed {lebna} used in the same way in "Imaginary
> Journeys: The Lojban Space/Time Tense System".  Am I seeing linguistic
> drift?)

I don't know the original...  Is it that the fox stole or just found and
took the blocks (bricks?)? lebna is steal, as well as seize, and can
also mean (in the right context) 'be given' (fits the place structure),
the only difference between se dunda and lebna being that the former
means that the object was taken from its previous possessor with his
assent, and the latter makes no assertion either way.  I think.

> > .ibabo le gunse cu cusku lu e'u ko klagau lei do panzi ti .i mi'o
> > ba punji ra le nenri be le toknu .ibabo selgaigau ra le glare dertu
> > .i roroi ca le nu do tirna le nu spoja keikei ko cusku lu paboi reboi
> > li'o li'u gi'e klama ru'u le toknu .ibabo lei do panzi ba'o binxo
> > lo simsa be lei zumri ne du'i lei me mi li'u
>
> In the first bridi, why {ti} instead of {vi}?

vi is a tense and cannot fill a numbered place. ti, on the other hand,
is a pro-sumti and as such can do so. Look:
mi klama ti (x1) lo lalxu (x2)   means   I go to the lake.
mi klama vi lo lalxu (x*)        means   I go (move around) in the
                                         vicinity of the lake

vi lo lalxe in the second sentence is one sumti, and it goes into its
own place, which vi opened up for it in the structure.  See?  And ti
means THIS HERE; not only for physical objects, but can also refer to
anything that is close to the speaker in space-time, including locations
and moments.

> Can one person {klama ru'u le toknu} (come around the oven)?

Think:  Go, around the oven (circle the oven). klama does not mean come.
It means to go from/to/through/by.  None of these were specified, so we
can translate is just nice with go.  Come is a good translation if you
have the destination, but if not it is very misleading.  (mi klama ti -
I come here (I go to here), but mi klama is just - I go.)

> > .i ta'i la'e di'u le lorxu nerpu'i lei ri panzi le toknu .i lu i'esai
> > me ta sei le gunse cu cusku li'u
> >
> > .i la'e lu me ta li'u se zukte le lorxu .i ca'o le nu le lorxu
> > cu nerpu'i lei ri panzi le toknu kei le gunse ku joi lei ri panzi
> > cu darno klama fo le lalxu .i mutce darno le lorxu
> >
> > .i ki'unai le nu lei lorpanzi cu dunku klaku kei le lorxu na jundi ra
> > gi'e nerpu'i ra le toknu .ibabo ua co'a spoja fa lei betfu be lei
> > lorpanzi .i roroi ca le nu lo betfu cu spoja kei le lorxu cu sruri
> > klama gi'e gleki cusku lu paboi li'u fa'ubo lu reboi li'u fa'ubo
> > lu ciboi li'u fa'ubo lu voboi li'u fa'ubo lu muboi li'u
>
> Now's a good a time as any to inquire about the distinction {lo} vs.
> {le}.  Why is it, e.g., {lei betfu} in the second line but {lo betfu} in
> the third?

co'a spoja lo betfu   means   For each of the stomacks, it began
exploding. That depicts five separate processes of exploding, each of
which is at the beginning point.

co'a spoja loi betfu   means   The stomacks began exploding. That means
there is one process, which is really a series of explosions of various
stomacks, which is now beginning.

The focus of the narrative here is not IMHO on the series of explosions
of each of the stomacks, but on the point in time when the heat reached
the level when the stomacks began exploding.  (Umm, this got much more
muddled than I thought.  I think I'll let somebody else explain this
one.)

lo is veridical and indefinite (more or less, I think that's the
consensus, right?), meaning that it roughly works like indefinite
article in English, and also says "this thing that is REALLY...".  So,
you can't really say lo crida because there aren't any around.  (Well,
this is also more complicated than that...  But we have been arguing
about it for months and it cant well be explained in one post... least
of all by me.)

> I'm not sure why {fa'u} was used in the last bridi, rather than, say,
> {ce'o}.

This way the sentence means "Each time a stomack exploded the fox went
around and cheerfully said [at the first explosion] one, then [at the
next explosion] two, then [at the next explosion] three..."

If ce'o were used, it would mean something like "Each time a stomack
exploded the fox circled and cheerfully said [each time all these:] one,
then two, then three..."

> > .ibabo ca le nu le lorxu cu barle'a lei ri panzi le kevna kei le gunse
> > cu mutce darnu bu'u le lalxu  .i le lorxu cu barle'a lei ri panzi noi
> > ba'o tabybi'o
>
> Again, I'd question the use of {lebna}.
> Thespatial tenses confuse me here; earlier, the goose went far away by
> route of the lake; but now the goose is far away _at_ the lake?

Yes.  What is so strange about it?  If the lake is five miles across,
and you swim to the far coast, when you get to the third mile you're
already far away from the coast where you entered the water, pe'ipei?

> > .i lu mo e'enai sei le lorxu cu cusku li'u .i co'a klaku
> >
> > .ibabo ly tcefengu gi'e cusku lu ai mi ba sudgau le lalxe li'u .i ly
> > pinxe ce'o pinxe mu'i le nu sudgau le lalxe .i ku'i ki'unai le nu
> > mutce pinxe na snada le nu sudgau le lalxe .i le ly betfu ba'o plana
> > binxo .i ly darkla ca'o le nu cirko lo djacu ra'i le trixe .i ly
> > jdesku lu o'i e'u ju'i kinli pezli ko na batci mi li'u
>
> {lalxe} should be {lalxu}, no?
> Could {le ly betfu ba'o plana binxo} also be written {le ly betfu ba'o
> plana} or {le ly betfo ba'o binxo (lo/le) plana}?

le ly. betfu ba'o plana binxo   means   The fox's stomack finished
getting bloated (and the fox is fat).

le ly. betfu ba'o plana   means   The fox's stomack finished being
bloated (and the fox is fat no more).

le ly. betfo ba'o binxo lo/le plana   means   The fox's stomack finished
becoming a/the bloated thing. The lo variant corresponds to the given
sentence pretty closely, though neither quite capture the whole sense of
the English sentence (i.e. the stomack is now a bloated thing, but not
necessarily a stomack any more. What the English sentence is really
saying is that the stomack became bloated stomack, and nobody in its
right mind would ever consider the sentence to mean that the stomack
became bloated VCR. The latter possibility is in lojban translation
easily visible). The le variant is not what you want, because of its
definiteness, i.e. There is this thing you know of that you'd describe
as fat and that is what fox's stomack has turned into. (compare English:
The cocoon turned into THE new butterfly. How does that sound?)

> The meaning of the last two sentences seems very weird to me.  Is
> "The fox dared to go while she was losing water from her back.  She
> cried out in warning, 'Be careful!  Sharp leaf, don't cut me!'" a
> correct translation?  Where's the fox going?  What on earth is a {kinli
> pezli}?

Doesn't really matter, I guess.  The point is, she actually WALKED with
all that water in her (or maybe driven a car, but I sincerely doubt
that).  I guess your translation is correct, 'cause I translated the
same way.  I'd say cactus needle, or agave (is that how it's called in
English?) or something such.

> > .i badri je klaku klama fo le cmana .ize'iku lo kilpezli ly batci
> > .i zo pof .i ly spoja
> > .i.uanai ma badri je klaku klama fo le cmana
>
> Any particular reason you use the lujvo {kilpelzi} here and the tanru
> {kinli pelzi} above, or is it just stylistic?

The latter. kilni pezli has greater range of meanings than kilpezli
(actually, kilpezli can only have one), but as I see it here they are
used in the same context and meaning.

> fo'e mi'e. dilyn. trs,ton.

fa'o, maybe? Yes, I guess so...

co'o doi dilyn. mi'e. goran.

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