Revenge of the Fat Gismu (no longer Re: TEXT: le gunse ku joi le lorxu)

["Dylan P. Thurston" <DPT@HUMA1.BITNET>]

la lojbab cusku di'e
 > ...
 > Even before Jorge, the wave of expanding place strutures subsided and many
 > were eliminated.  Jorge would have us eliminate still more, but I think
 > we have reached a good balance.

What complacency!  We must be ever vigilant defenders of the faith,
seeking out extraneous terbridi wherever they may hide and eradicating
them! :-)

Seriously, the gismu list is mostly excellent.  But there are still
some extra places and lapses in uniformity.  Your {klupe} is a good
example--why does it have a place for the threads when {dinko} (nail)
doesn't have one for the point?  Sorry to ask, but why haven't you
fixed it?  (Time constraints would be a good bet, I suppose.)


The "planetary characteristics" of {mluni} and {plini} was another
good example.  It's just far too vague to have a place.  (Unless it's
meant to be a material--but then the definition should say that).

Or take the motion verbs expressing a manner of movement.  I count the
following:

cadzu   x1 walks/strides/paces on surface x2 using limbs x3
bajra   x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4
stapa   x1 steps/treads on/in surface x2 using limbs x3
vofli   x1 flies [in air/atmosphere] using lifting/propulsion means x2
cpare   x1 climbs/clambers/creeps/crawls on surface x2 in direction x3 using
                        x4 [limbs/tools]
farlu   x1 falls/drops to x2 from x3 in gravity well/frame of reference x4
sfubu   x1 dives/swoops [manner of controlled falling] to x2 from x3
plipe   x1 (agent/object) leaps/jumps/springs/bounds to x2 from x3 reaching
                height x4 propelled by x5

IMHO, these are similar predicates and should have similar place
structure.  But: only some include the medium; {cpare}, uniquely among
all motion verbs, includes a direction; {bajra} but not {cadzu}
includes a gait; and {farlu}, {sfubu}, and {plipe} but not the rest
include source & destination.  As a result, it's very difficult to
talk about someone falling down an infinite pit (consider, for
instance, Alice falling down the rabbit-hole in "Alice in
Wonderland"[1]).

[1] Yes, there is a source and destination, but they're not relevant
to Alice in the middle of the fall; if I recall correctly, she wonders
at one point whether the fall will ever end.  That would currently
have to be translated as wondering whether a terbridi has a value (!).

 > One just has to be wary NOT to use a brivla
 > metaphorically unless you can metaphorize all of the places of the place
 > structure.

Yes, good advice; PROVIDED the gismu doesn't have extraneous places.

A good (very long-term) project would be to give examples for the
gismu list, covering both allowed and disallowed usages.  In
particular, this would guarantee that all the places can be filled
reasonably concisely, something I sometimes get suspicious about.

 > lojbab

mu'o mi'e. dilyn.