Re: Reflexivity

[Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>]

> Would anyone care to defend the use of lujvo with {sevzi} to fill the
> function of reflexives in ordinary languages?
>
> In a natural language, with nouns and verbs, the use of the word for
> "self" to make a reflexive is supportable--there is a definite actor
> "self" refers back to.  (How do other languages do this, btw?  I don't
> think most use literally the word for "ego", making this usage even worse
> malglico.)
>
> But in Lojban, the equivalent of a reflexive is just a bridi with some of
> the terbridi filled with identical values.  There is not necessarily an
> "agent" to any bridi, the agent need not be in the first terbridi.
>
> There need not even be any sumti to which {sevzi} can even apply.  {sevzi}
> is
>
> sevzi sez     se'i self
> x1 is a self/ego/id/identity-image of x2
> (cf. cmavo list mi, prenu, menli, jgira)
>
> This seems to apply only to intelligent beings, since only those can have
> an "identity-image" (etc.).

He's got the point.  Croatian uses the prefix samo- which I think
corresponds to Latin ipse/a/um, or the pronoun.  It means the same as
"him/her/itself".  Makes absolutely no reference to self itself (no pun
intended).  Latin uses just pronouns.

So, English             Latin            Croatian
defend oneself          se defendere     braniti se    (all pronouns)
self-defense            sui defensio (?) samoobrana
he who defends himself  sui defensor     /

Actually, SELF is a rather contraintuitive word for EGO.  Originally
self means exactly what we would like it to mean:  reflexivity.  BUT,
German philosophers began using it for one's Ego (Selbst, if I am not
mistaken), and English just picked it up like many other things from
many other languages.  So, the main and primary meaning of self is
reflexive, and if sevzi was intended to be used that way (which I
believe to be true) then it's definition is strongly misleading.

> May I suggest lujvo with {du} instead?
>
> Or maybe the definition of {sevzi} should be radically changed instead.
>
> co'o mi'e. dilyn.

co'o mi'e. goran.
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