Re: coi za'e jboterymri

[ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>]

> > > > lu katna le mokca liu se cusku tahi le ka sidbo simsa cei
> > >                                                         ^^^no'u
> > kie, jaa ija lu {le ka sidbo simsa cei me lae zoi gy metaphor gy}
> > liu, xu?
> i ju'ocu'i  i zo cei flalu se pilno fi tu'a zo broda  i ku'i pe'i
> le do selcusku cu se jimpe

ma se pilno fi le nu cusku le simsa zo pou a zo nou gie ciksi skicu
lo valsi be lo selbri?

> > do cao katna le mokca a le bae tcemlinalmokca - oinaipei?
> i ie i'a/i'anaise'i

peu cao mockatna i mi na narselpluka i do xamgu se tsapi

> > I had understood {zao} differently. I thought it is for events the
> > technical term for which is "accomplishments" (and to which I suspect
> > {puu} is supposed to correspond), that have an inherent point of
> > completion, where the activity that brings about the accomplishment
> > continues after the result has been accomplished. For example, you
> > could paint a door until it is painted, but then continue to paint
> > it. That would, I had supposed, be superfective painting. But I
> > haven't encountered this notion outside Lojban (the index to Comrie's
> > to'e brilliant book on aspect has no entry for Superfective).
> I don't think the two notions are all that different. For states
> there is usually no natural completion point, so if {za'o} is to mean
> anything with them it has to mean "beyond the expected perduration
> of the state".

On my account, zao + state means that there is some respect in which
the state reaches completion. E.g. "be dead for a year".

> For accomplishments, the completion would seem to be the natural end
> of the event, in the absence of other context. I'm not saying that
> {za'o} and "still" are identical, just that they have a big overlap.
> It seems like it would be normal to say "why are you still painting
> the door?" when it is already fully painted.
> But the door being fully painted may not be the natural end of the
> event under some circumstances. If we agree that I will be painting
> the door for half an hour, and you find me still painting it after
> one hour, I think that {za'o} is appropriate even if the door is not
> fully painted, because the expected ending point of that particular
> event was after half an hour.

You're quite right, but in this scenario the painting activity is
delimited by the time-limit rather than by the door. It remains an
accomplishment - after the half hour you could say "I've *finished*
painting the door" (but before the half hour was up you could say
only "I've *stopped* painting the door").

Even under my construal of {zao}, it remains a fairly good rendering
of "still". But, as you said, it would be nice to have translations
for both "still" and "already" that incorportate notions of
"expected start" and "expected end". Maybe you could use a lujvo?
{pajcfa}, {pajfao}? Or {ue}?

coo, mie And