Re: fuzzy truth

[Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>]

la stivn cusku di'e

> I would still like to be able to say something like:
>
> The food at Le Francais in Wheeling Illinois is 8ish on a 0 to 9 scale.

mi merli tu'a le cidja pe la fraso li ji'ibi li no bi'i li so
I evaluate something about the food at Le Francais as 8ish on scale 0-9.

> It
> is possible that there is some easy way to do this already in lojban,
> although I haven't seen any posts that quite get at what I want to do.

What predicate would you like in order to say that? Something like:

        x1 is x2 units (default=1) on scale/property x3

Unfortunately, I can't find a gismu with that structure. I remember that
someone once proposed that {gradu} should have that structure, but it
seems that it wasn't changed. That the place structure of all the
specific units, it is really weird that the generic unit doesn't have
that structure.

> Now, perhaps I saw some shadows which on a 0 to 7 scale I am 4ish certain
> corresponded to the defendant and the errant politician, and suppose I saw
> these shadows perform the alledged defenestration to certainty 3ish on a 0
> to 4 scale.

If I understand correctly, here you want an observative to mark how certain
you are of what you are saying. How about this:

        sei vofi'uzesi'e selbirti
        With 4/7th certainty

        sei cifi'uvosi'e selbirti
        With 3/4th certainty


> There have been several objections:
>
> 1. People don't think this way. This is the way computers handle fuzziness.
>
> The use of numbers in my examples is not meant to imply exactness-these
> numbers are fuzzy.

Even with fuzzy numbers I still don't think that way, but you are welcome
to use such forms if you like them.

> One example I see in my medical practice is when I ask a
> patient to describe the severity of pain.
>
> "How bad does it hurt?"
> "Well, doc, its about a 3 on a 1 to 10 scale."

And that tells you something? If one patient tells you 3 on a 1 to 10
scale and another tells you 3 on a 1 to 7 scale, can you conclude
anything different from that? Does that mean that the second patient was
hurting more? If a third patient tells you "it hurts some but not terribly
much", are they giving you less information?

> People *do* think this way, or perhaps more accurately, people *can* think
> this way.

That's fine. They can still think like that in Lojban if they want to.

> <X1> <kerfa> <fuzzy numerator> <fuzzy denominator>
>
> This would mean a change in the 3 position, as body location is not
> analogous to body location. Perhaps there could be a better 2 position as
> well.

I really don't think that {kerfa} helps here (the x2 and x3 have nothing
to do with numbers) but I would certainly support a change in the place
structure of {gradu} to "x1 is x2 units in property/dimension x3". Then you
could get your predicate with {jbirau}: x1 is close to/approximately
x2 in property/dimension x3".

Jorge