Re: PLI: brain fart metaphor

[Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>]

> ucleaar writes:
> >I don't think {broda brode} entails {brode}. So technically, {besna kafke}
> >is legit. Furthermore, even if you used just {kafke}, that too is okay;
> >you'd be claiming it was a cough/fart, but then that's metaphor.
>
> I think you've gone too far.  I'm with you that {broda brode} need not
> entail {brode}, but I do think that {brode} *does* entail {brode}, so
> {kafke} alone should be marked with {pe'a}.

.i ledu'u broda brode ja'a nibli ledu'u brode
.i lu besna kafke li'u drani co selsmu be lesi'o da citka lo besna gi'e
jai vaxnabmi gi'e kafke le cidja poi besna kei .enai lesi'o lo besna cu
gaxkafke kei peva'onai lenu lo besna cu farvi lo selganxo

> I disagree that {pe'a} is always optional.  Failure to use {pe'a} when
> a gismu or lujvo is being used metaphorically is (IMHO) improper.  As
> Don noted in one of our Lojban exchanges on the subject, Lojban is a
> *logical* language.  If you assert a predicate, the predicate should be
> true (epistemological issues aside).  If you wish to assert that it is
> metaphorically true, say so.

.iecai

> My position, though, is that tanru are already metaphors, and don't,
> therefore, require {pe'a} markers.

.i na go'i .i le jbobau skicu valsi no'u zoi gy. metaphor .gy. cu tcetce
jai cfipu .i ri frica lo sance mintu ke ronbau skicu valsi .i jy. .enai
ry. smuni zo tanru .i lesi'o tu'a pada poi brivla cu stika tu'a pade poi
brivla cu smuni zo tanru

> The particular point at issue is whether the places of {broda brode},
> being the same as {brode}, may be filled by metaphorical objects.  Does
> a {besna kafke} require a {te kafke}, or may it merely have a {pe'a te
> kafke}?  Don (and John Cowan, it seems) think not.

.i la goran. ji'a go'i

> Meanwhile, can anyone come up with a selbri for "metaphor"?  I'd like
> to move some of this discussion *back* to lojban, but it's tough when
> I can't say "Tanru are metaphors" for lack of the darn word.

.i .e'u lo ckini be zo klute'isni .a zo klusni noi torzma kei .a zo
tolna'osni .a zo datsni vu'o noi la'a tertau be zo bangu .i roda poi
bangu nunpli cu sinxa .i pe'i la'ezoi gy. metaphor .gy. cu kulnu steci
sinxa be na'ebo la'ele cnano smuni belei valsi

no'i no tanru cu klute'isni .i loi tanru cu tanru

co'o mi'e. goran.