Re: na`e

[JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

LDC:
>    My brain can't at the moment figure out how to say the
>    weaker predicate alone if we choose the stronger for na'e;
>    something with broda and a prenex, maybe, like "the cat <X>
>    the chair, where <X> != sits-on"; can someone more fluent help
>    me out here?

Lojban is not really well suited to handle quantification of selbri,
but something like this at least superficially works:

(1)        su'o bu'a poi na vreta zo'u le mlatu cu bu'a le stizu
             For some <X> which is not "vreta", the cat <X> the chair.

I think {su'o bu'a poi na vreta} really means something else, but
that's a different story which I'm not sure we want to get into.

In any case, in my opinion it is always true that:

 (2)       ro da ro de so'i bu'a zo'u da bu'a de
            For every x and every y, there are many <Z> such that x <Z> y.

so that (1) is always true.

>    The same issue applies to na'e on one sumti: the stronger
>    interpretation of "le mlatu cu vreta na'e le stizu" is that
>    the cat is not sitting on the chair AND is sitting on something
>    else.  The weaker interpretation only asserts that the cat sits
>    on something else, and posibly the chair as well (perhaps it
>    is sitting on a pillow on the chair, or else the tense used
>    means the cat has sat or will sit on many things).

You're right. It wouldn't make sense to use one interpretation
for selbri and another one for sumti.


>(2) Multiple na'e: What does "na'e le mlatu cu vreta na'e le stizu"
>    assert?

Small grammar correction: "na'e bo le mlatu cu vreta na'e bo le stizu".

>    In other words, I would choose
>    that this asserts that (a) "le mlatu cu vreta le stizu" is false
>    and (b) it is true for some different value of /any/ of the
>    sumti--in other words, maybe the dog sits on the chair, or the cat
>    sits on the shelf, or the mailman sits on the dog.  I think that's
>    a useful and ordinary meaning.

Well, let's see: {na'e bo ko'a broda} should mean {ko'a na broda
ije da broda} = "ko'a is not a broda and there is some x such that
x is a broda".

Then {na'e bo le mlatu cu vreta na'e bo le stizu} expands to:

        le mlatu na vreta na'e bo le stizu
        ije da vreta na'e bo le stizu

which in turn becomes:

        le mlatu cu vreta le stizu
        ijabo le mlatu na vreta de
        ije da na vreta le stizu
        ijebo da vreta de

which simplifies to:

        da vreta de
        ije le mlatu na vreta de
        ije da na vreta le stizu

which says that something sits on something, but it is
neither  the cat nor on the chair.

This is symmetric on the cat and the chair, so that expanding
first {na'e bo le stizu} will get us to the same result, i.e that
something other than the cat sits on something other than the
chair: neither the cat is sitting on something nor the chair is being
sat upon.

>    The alternative, if we choose the strong na'e and left-to-right
>    grouping, gets convoluted: the bridi above asserts that (a) "le
>    mlatu cu vreta na'e le stizu" is false--the cat can't sit on
>    anything--and (b) it's true for some other value of the sumti--
>    somebody /can/ sit on something other than the chair.  The "inner"
>    na'e then asserts other things, which must then be compounded with
>    the outer assertions.  I definitely like the weaker "collapsed"
>    multiple na'e here.

But that would be inconsistent. Besides, there is no inner and outer na'e,
since it doesn't matter in which order you take them.

>(3) How does one negate all or only certain brivla in a tanru, and

{na'e} modifies the following brivla only, so

            ta na'e xunre rozgu
            That is a non-red rose.

            ti xunre na'e rozgu
            This is a red non-rose.

(Both ti and ta could be red roses with the weak version
of na'e, which I think doesn't make much sense.)

>    what does that assert about the whole bridi?

You never know for sure with tanru, but I think it's more or
less clear what the above examples mean.


co'o mi'e xorxes