Re: abstractor place structures

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

>>I can imagine  ni mlatu be fi lo selci (be loi mlatu) woulfd be a klani
>--More--
>>whose x2 is the count.
>
>mlatu be fi lo selci?
>
>You must have mistyped something.

ni mlatu kei (be) fi lo selci

>Yes, but it's abstracted out, not as an argument of the main selbri.
>If you prefer:
>
>                        lei va mlatu cu klani li paci le kamselkancu
>

I have no idea if that lujvo has lost the counter place %^)
Whether it is "abstracted out" or not, it is still implicitly relevant
unless zi'o-filled, or a lujvo is created which explicitly does not have a
counter.

>>But I would prefernot to stretch klani/ni to be used
>>for counts of objects.
>
>How do you interpret the "enumerated by x2" bit in the gi'uste
>definition of klani?

\klani
>>But I would prefernot to stretch klani/ni to be used
>>for counts of objects.
>
>How do you interpret the "enumerated by x2" bit in the gi'uste
>definition of klani?

I was  specifically pointing to the x2 be a number/quantifier.
I am sure that there is SOME x3 (whether we can agree on what it is) whereby
le ni mlatu cu klani li xo le broda
asks for how many cats there are in which case the ni abstraction is
enumerated by that count.  (Enumerated can means imply that it has a
 specific
number applicable to it).

>>I am willing to have a count always to imply a counter.
>
>That's fine. I am not, and so I look for ways to say in Lojban
>what I want to say.

zi'o forever %^)

> >mitre and
>>the like are units (gradu),
>
>If you mean {ro mitre cu gradu} then I disagree.

Maybe I mean anti-ka(le ka mitre) cu g
radu %^)
Or maybe I need an anti-si'o.  Clearly
lo si'o mitre  is not a gradu, but it is certainly releated to lo gradu.

>>and I intended, back before people got hung up
>>on place structure conventions, that new measurement units would be lujvo
>>based on gradu.
>
>I don't understand your point. Are you saying that because that's
>what you intended back then we should avoid any rational analysis?

No  I am saying that the rational analysis must follow the needs of the languag
e
user and is secondary to it.

>How do you use {gradu} to say "the sugar is 3 in cups", in a way that
>parallels {le sakta cu grake li xanono} for "the sugar is 600 in grams"?

You can't, but a certain pattern of lujv
o involving gradu should
have that  pattern of sumti structure.  Thus, I THINK I have
"newton" in my files as "baplygradu" assuming that metric unist would have
preeminent use of shortest lujvo.  And baplygradu would have a plac
e structure
such that you would say x1 is measured in newtons as x2, with other parameters
x3, x4, x5 as required my place struture analysis.

>dekto   x1 is ten [1x10**1] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
>?????   x1 is one [1x10**0] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3
>decti     x1 is a tenth [1x10**-1] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3

When they come up with a metric prefix for 10 ** 0, tyhen we'll make a gismu
for it %^).

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@access.digex.net
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/";
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.