Re: Indirect questions

[And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>]

Jorge:
> >> Then I could say: {lu le mi mlatu cu morsi li'u cu danfu
> >> lu xu do badri li'u}, but when I say {ko'a djuno le du'u xukau
> >> mi badri} I don't mean {ko'a djuno le du'u le mi mlatu cu
> >> morsi}.
> >OK. But why are you so sure that {danfu} is the appropriate
> >selbri? {la`e lu le mi mlatu cu morsi} is not what one knows
> >if one knows le du`u xu kau do badri. I seem to be missing a bit
> >of your reasoning.
>
> I suppose we need to know what {danfu} is supposed to mean.
> I think that you either have {<text1> danfu <text2>} or {<du'u1>
> danfu <du'u2>}, or maybe we can have  both, but I don't think
> you can have a mix. If I'm right then you must have either:
> {ko'a djuno le danfu be la'e lu ... li'u} or {ko'a djuno la'e le
> danfu be lu ... li'u}, because the x2 of djuno is a du'u, not a
> text.

OK: I agree that either both these versions are OK or neither are.
I'm still not convinced that {le danfu be la'e lu ... li'u} or
{la'e le danfu be lu ... li'u} are what ko`a knows when ko`a
knows whether such-and-such.

> >I take {xu do badri} to mean
> >
> >   Bring it about that for every x, a truthvalue of {do badri},
> >     I know that x is truthvalue of {do badri}.
>
> That's asking for too much. For example, you are asking
> the person not only that they respond with the truth but that
> they convince you that they're saying the truth (otherwise
> you wouldn't _know_ that what they say it true). Maybe that
> really is implicit in questions? I don't know.

I'm surely asking them to respond with the truth in such a
way that it changes the state of my knowledge.

> I would have said {xu do badri} means: repeat this
> statement replacing the question word so as to make it
> a true statement. The replacement for {xu} is in a first
> instance either {na} or {ja'a}, and ususally you will repeat
> by using {go'i}.

I know you think this, and I don't think it incorrect, but I
do think it an unnecessarily metalinguistic characterization
of the meaning of questions.

At any rate, I at least understand why you're not sure what
{la`e lu xu do badri li`u} means but you are sure what
{le danfu be la'e lu ... li'u}/{la'e le danfu be lu ... li'u}
mean.

> >I suppose the "answer" to that command would be some information
> >such as a list of everything that is a truthvalue of {do badri}.
>
> To me, as I said, it's either: {lu mi badri li'u danfu lu xu do badri li'u}
> or {la'e lu mi badri li'u danfu la'e lu xu do badri li'u}.
>
> The second one could be {le du'u mi badri cu danfu la'e lu
> xu do badri li'u}, assuming the question was made to {mi}.

I understand what you're saying.

> In the case of {<du'u> danfu <du'u>} there is no claim that any
> statements were made by anybody.

Sure. I think the answer to a question (a piece of text = an
act by a speaker) is either an act of supplying information, or a
piece of information. We seem to agree on this, but not on
whether either kind of answer can be x2 of djuno.

>  >So if {xu do badri} means
> >
> >   Bring it about that for every x, a truthvalue of {do badri},
> >     I know that x is truthvalue of {do badri}.
> >
> >then {la`e lu xu do badri} means one of the following:
> >
> >   - For every x, a truthvalue of {do badri}, I know that x is
> >        truthvalue of {do badri}.
> >   - x is truthvalue of {do badri}.
> >   - do badri
>  >
> >To me, the first of these makes the most sense.
>
> To me, my knowledge has little to do with the meaning of
> {la'e lu xu do badri}. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to use
> examples with mi/do. What would you say {la'e lu xu la djan badri}
> means? "I know whether John is sad"?

I reckon so. But the other two of my three suggestions are a bit
more intuitive. So I wouldn't want to take a firm stand on this.

> >{la`e lu ko
> >klama li`u} would be "do klama". And {xu do badri} would
> >be equivalent to something like {gau ko mi djuno le du`u
> >xu kau do badri}.
> >["gau" is a guess at the appropriate BAI]
>
> How do you make reference to the meaning of
> {lu xu la djan badri}, which is the same as the meaning
> of {lu xu se badri la djan}, even though they're two different
> text-questions?

If you mean "propositional content", then just stick {la`e}
in front. If you mean "discourse function" or something like
that, you don't need to stick anything in front: the two
different texts have the same discourse function.

--And