Re: On Lojban

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

>I understand your position. Your goal is that there be lots of
>Lojban usage. You don't care what kind of usage it is, so long
>as it doesn't involve too much of a certain kind of metaphor.
>And the best way to achieve your goal is to do everything to
>encourage people to use Lojban and nothing to discourage it.
>
>I don't think your goals are those of generic Loglan, and I do
>think that the achievement of your goals is hindered by any
>efforts to achieve my goals and those of generic Loglan.
>
>Actually, I should rephrase that bit about generic Loglan.
>Perhaps the main, and rather fatuous, goal of generic Loglan
>was to equip people with a culturally-neutral language (for
>which end a lg based on logic seemed a good choice) and then
>get them to use it, to see if there are any whorfian effects.
>That does seem to be your goal. But a secondary goal of Loglan,
>and one that I suspect holds more attraction for more people, is
>that it be a logical language. This secondary goal conflicts
>with the primary one. You favour the primary one and I favour
>the secondary one.

Not quite correct.  I don't favor any of the goals of Lojban in particular
- it is for me a commitment to others to provide for their goals - it is that
commitment that has sustained me all these years and not any personal goal
choices (or I would not have stuck to it)

Rather, I have come to feel, having talked to several people who have
held back on learning the language, that "learning a language" is a
Difficult Thing (tm) that people do not commit to lightly.  learning a
"logical language" is perceived as an even more difficult thing.
By difficult, I mean among other things that it will take a long time
to achieve any significant degree of mastery.first last
first last
(ignore that)

My stand therefore is that I support BOTH your goal and what you thought is
my goal.  If my personal consideration weighed in, I would be sympathetic
more to your goal than the more generic one, but this is counterweighted by
the uncertainty whether it can be achieved.

BUT, because of the learning curve and the reluctance of people to start,
I feel that it is necessary to get a large core of people started learning
what you would consider the less refined generic language, having them
avoid the bad habits we have identified (like certain kinds of metaphor,
unmarked sumti raising and attitudinals, etc), and then using thos larger
more skilled body of speakers to refine the language to the more "perfected"
goal.  I see the difference between the two more a matter of ensuring good
habits of usage than one of adjusting the baselined language.  Thus we will
come to increase the number of bad habits to be avoided, and indeed may
add specific good habits to aim for.

Beleive it or not, this whole issue was debated around 15 years ago.
JCB and Jeff Prothero and perhaps others were involved.  The conclusion
that was reached was that Loglan Mark I would be the best we could do, but
that almost certainly that there would be a Loglan Mark II that would as much
more logical than Loglan Mark I as the latter is compared to English.  But
that it would take a group of designers thoroughly fluent in Loglan Mark I
and indeed perhaps a whole community to support them, in order to have
to insight into logic and language necessary to do the design.

Thus my immediate practical goal is somewhat less than what you would prefer
but I recognize the long term aim as being the same as what you seek.  I am
willing to defer the higher goal because I am convinced by that prior
discussion that it is likely to proceed that way anyhow, and I an cinvinced
by the developments of the last 5 years or so, that indeed the fine semantics
and logical analysis of the language will be much easier as time goes on, just
as each year has brought us ever more refiend insights into usage.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@access.digex.net
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/";
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.