Re: whether (was Re: ni, jei, perfectionism)

[And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>]

Lojbab:
> >> mi zanru leka melbi
> >>
> >> I approve of beauty.
> >
> >You need a ce`a for the Lojban meaning to be clear.
>
> You mean ce'u, I assume.   But NO I do not.

Yes you do. Your sentence is equivalent to one with an explicit
ce`u. Your addressee has to work out where to insert the ce`u.

There is a convention, which I am trying to oppose by example,
such that ce`u and ke`a go in the first empty place. So most
people would understand your sentence as "I approve of the
property of being beautiful".

> To put ce'u in there
> (unless I put it in all places) is to focus on a particular place as
> significant to my apporval.  The statement is NOT that I approve of
> the property of beautiful things or the property of people appreciating
> beautiful things or the property of  aspects leading to appreciation of
> beauty or the property of aesthetic standards being used for such recognition
> of beauty.

Yes it is.

> The statement is appreciation of Beauty, in all of its
> ramifications

No. That's not how Lojban ka abstractions work.

> - the relationship between people and beautiful things and
> apsects and aesthetic standards.

I suggest:

  mi zanru le ka ce`u nu melbi

for the meaning you want.

> >> mi zanru le du'u melbi
> >>
> >> I approve of the fact that (something is) beautiful.
> >
> >No. "I approve of the proposition that something is beautiful".
> >
> >"the fact that" is better rendered by "le nu".
>
> I disagree, partly because I do not see any difference between the former
> and the latter.

Facts are true propositions. Propositions can be false. Facts
can't.

> But since ledu'u got its definition in part from djuno,
> then le du'u which is something that can be known, must therefore be a
> "fact".

x2 of djuno = fact = true proposition.
du`u = proposition.
nu broda = state-of-affairs that makes {du`u broda} true

If you want to translate "fact" using "du`u", then use:

 da poi/voi ke`a ge jetnu gi du`u

> >> If I get much from ce'u, then
> >>
> >> mi zanru leka ce'u melbi
> >>
> >> I approve of something's beauty
> >
> >"I approve of the property of being beautiful."
>
> I think I can accept this one.

- good.

> >> Both of the above seem to me to be elaborations on
> >>
> >> mi zanru leka melbi
> >
> >Elaborations in the sense of disambiguations.
>
> Disambiguation is not necessary to those of us who appreciate complexity %^)

If all readings are equally relevant then the addressee may
conclude that all readings are intended. That is, that the
speaker is actually communicating several different bridi
simultaneously with the one jufra.

--And