Re: [LONG!] xu le mi lojban sinxa cu drani

[Goran Topic <amadan@USA.NET>]

Okay, I'll use English to be more precise. It would be much more helpful
if you had included what you intended this to mean. In particular, I am
interested in what do you think "zi" means - I just can't figure out
what did you think you need it for. The real meaning is that something
is a short time away in future or past. Like in "I just came in", or
"I'll be going in a moment" - both of these are valid translations for
the lojban sentence "mi zi klama". The cmavo list has this to say about
"zi":

zi [ ZI ] short time;
time tense distance: instantaneous-to-short distance in time

Besides, I see you share my problem: I often use lojban like Chinese,
without the subject. It is not wrong, just has a bit different meaning
that can sometimes prove to be the wrong one. In Chinese, omitted
subject often means the implied one, one from the previous discourse,
etc. In lojban, if you leave off any sumti it is considered filled with
a default or an implied value, just like in Chinese - any, except the
first. In that case, the sentence stops being a simple declaration, but
rather turns the attention to something that could fill that position.
So, "mi prenu" means "I'm a person", but "prenu" means "Look, a
person!", or "Something is a person, and I urge you to pay heed to it."

> xu lu
>
>  mi se cmene zo pilch hartmut. zi ba'u jungo zo PEI2 ,Han2mu4

"pilch" is not a lojban name: "h" does not exist in lojban as such. Some
people write ' (apostrophe) as "h", but that letter is phonetically very
restricted - it only comes between two vowels. "zo" on the other hand
only quotes a single *lojban* word. for non-lojban words we have "zoi",
which requires delimiters: "zoi cmene Pilch Hartmut .cmene" (you can
substitute any valid lojban word for "cmene" here - after "zoi" it does
not have any meaning other than delimiting non-lojban text). If you want
to lojbanize your name, then you could quote it with "zo", but only if
you make it one word (no pause in between). If you want to make it two
words, it's "lu ... li'u" quoting. In lojban your name would probably be
something like "piltc. xartmut." or "pilx. xartmut." (Sorry, I don't
know the pronunciation.) Or, as one word, "piltcxartmut." and
"pilxartmut.", respectively. The chinese offers an additional problem:
if you quote them with "zo", as lojban names, numbers by convention
expand to their lojban equivalents in speech, so (ignoring the "h"
problem), pronunciation wouldn't be "Pei" 2nd tone, "Han" 2nd tone, "mu"
3rd tone, but rather "peire xanre muvo". I'm not sure, but I strongly
suspect that this is invalid as name in lojban.
Then there's the matter of "zi" and "ba'u". About "zi" I already
commented; "ba'u" says "I'm exaggerating", although I suspect you wanted
"bau" - "in language" modal. If so, all modals introduce an additional
argument (sumti) place immediately after them - not selbri. So, "bau
jungo" is wrong - "bau le jungo" is not. BTW, "le jungo" is "something
Chinese", and not explicitly Chinese language. If it sits in a language
place, one could safely say the context will take care of it, so I'll
just leave it at that.

So, I guess you want something like

  mi se cmene zoi cy. Pilch Hartmut .cy. noi se valsi zoi jy.
  Pei2 Han2mu4 jy. le jungo

"I am named 'Pilch Hartmut' which is worded 'Pei2 Han2mu4' in Chinese"

By rewording I lost need of "bau" language modal (since "valsi" already
has a language place. It is a bit free translation, though - I guess
there could be someone who doesn't agree with me on this one.

Of course, as I said, you could replace "zoi cy. Pilch Hartmut .cy."
with "lu piltc. xartmut. li'u" or "zo piltc.".

>  .i mi jungo bo se tadni larcu bo vlipa

I (chinese learning-subject) (artistic powerful)? I guess I can deduce
you wanted "I am a Master of Arts in Chinese". Not the best way of
putting it. I am the local stickler for the "social butterfly"
principle: tanru mean what the latter part means, and what words mean is
pretty literal. "Social butterfly" can only be a butterfly, and a "stone
lion" is an animal, albeit of a subspecies I have never heard of.
"Butterfly social" and "lion stone" are much more lojban expressions of
the same concept. But I digress.

"larcu vlipa" is not Master of Arts. "vlipa" here is IMHO OK, but a
language is not "larcu" unless you are a poet or a writer or a
calligrapher. "Art" in English is polysemic; in lojban it is not.
Unless, of course, you stick to the letter of the gismu list and say
"any language use is creative application". But then we could use
"larcu" for almost any other action selbri. What do the others think?

Also, I don't think you *need* "se" in there. It doesn't hurt, but you
can do without. My best shot at the phrase would be "Chinese
master-certified" - "jungo ke vlipa catni bo se xusra" or "jungo se
vlicatxu'a"

>  zi gugde cipra zi zanru jungo ponjo dotco fanva

Again, I don't understand "zi". "gugde" is not "national" - except,
maybe in sense "nation-wide", if that is your meaning. Otherwise, I
would suggest "catni", or "jecta".
"zanru jungo ponjo dotco fanva" is tanru, and it is not parsed as you
would wish.

(((Approve Chinese) having to do with Japanese)-related German)
type-of translation

I can't imagine what is a Japanese related to approving Chinese, let
alone all the rest. The point being, without any other words that might
modify it, tanru are parsed left to right. If you want

Approved ((Chinese-Japanese-German) translator)

then try "se zanru ke jungo joi ponjo joi dotco fanva".
(I figured you would want "se" - without it it sounds as if you approve
(proof-read) other people's translations. If that was your intention,
drop "se")

>  .i ginka fe ke dotgug lu 80636 Blutenburgstr 17

So I gather you are currently living in Germany, at address
Blutenburgstrasse 17. First, I don't know if I'd use "ginka", probably
"xabju", but the gismu list is unclear. Hey, people, what is a
temporary  residence? Is it a place where one temporarily resides, or
one that is not built to last? Choice of words notwithstanding, the
sentence is ungrammatical. Why "fe"? Second place of "ginka" is the one
who lives there. "dotgug" is not in a name position, yet it is a name by
its structure - only names are allowed to end with a consonant. Besides,
"tg" combination is not phonologically allowed, and requires a buffer
vowel "y". So, selbri forms include "dotygu'e" and "dotygugde", but not
"dotgug". "lu" quote must be closed - otherwise you quote your whole
text till the end, and anyway, you can't use it, 'cause the address is
not in lojban. Try:

.i mi se ginka fi lo dotygu'e se judri be zoi dy. Blutenburgstr 17 .dy.

>  .i fonynamcu fa li 498912789608

Most people would argue that one should use "judri" - after all, phone
number is also an address, not really a number. It does not describe
quantities, you can't perform mathematical operations on it...

>  .i e'osai ko cidru fe http://www.a2e.de/phm/

I couldn't figure out what "cidru" is supposed to be. Also, you most
probably don't need "fe", as it already is your 2nd sumti. The address
is not lojban, though, and should be foreign-quoted with "zoi".

> li'u cu drani lojban sinxa

"lojban" is a name, and you can't use it in tanru constructions. The
corresponding selbri is "jbobau" or "lojbau" or "lojbybangu" or one of
the several other combinations that end in a vowel.

Besides, "drani jbobau sinxa" is not good - what is the correct lojban?
You probably mean one of these two things:

a) "drani ke jbobau sinxa" or "drani jbobau bo sinxa"
   = correct (lojban sign)

b) "jbobau drani sinxa"
   = (lojbanically correct) sign

I hope this helps, and that you were able to make some sense of this,
too long as it is.

co'o mi'e. goran.