Re: properties and locations

["Jorge J. Llambías" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

Lojbab:
>These seem like sumti raising from something like
 >le ka le bitmu cu ckaji steci
>==> tu'a le bitmu

I suppose that works too.

>though I have trouble figuring out the punji example even so.  It looks
>more like rinkygau.

Not the way I understand {rinkygau}: x1 makes that event x2 causes event x3.
But I agree there are other ways of saying it, e.g.:

        mi ckajygau le bitmu le ka blabi
        I make the wall have whiteness.

I'm not saying there are no other way of saying some of those. I'm saying
that if some location places accept properties, then to be consistent
all location places should. I agree that the case here is less compelling
than for possession places, because I can't find yet an explicit example
in the gi'uste.

Rik:
>>        le bitmu cu klama le ka blabi kei le ka xunre
>>        The wall goes to being white from being red.
>
>What are the X4 and X5?  Via what route, and what means of conveyance?

        le bitmu cu klama le ka blabi kei le ka xunre kei
        le ka blabyxunre kei le nu mi cintypunji
        The wall goes to being white from being red through being
        whitish-red by the means of my painting it.

 >>        le bitmu cu jbini le ka blabi kei joi le ka xunre
>>        The wall is between being white and being red.
>
>Hmm, I'm not sure.  "x2 (a complete set, generally ordered)."

Or "amidst mass x2". I prefer to use masses in most places that
the gi'uste recommends sets, it makes much more sense to me.
But change {joi} to {ce} or {ce'o} for this example if you prefer.

>An aside: If the wall is red, is it still jbini?  (Is the set
>inclusive?)  If not, how un-red does it have to be to become jbini?  The
>more I think about this one, the more complicated it gets.

How un-red does it have to be in English to be between red
and white? You can be more precise if you want, or leave it fuzzy.

>>        le bitmu cu zvati le ka blabi
>>        The wall is at being white.
>
>The gi'uste seems pretty explicit that <se zvati> is an event/location.
>That definition in itself seems polysemous, but lojban seems to treat
>time and space nearly the same, so maybe not.  In either case, color
>seems completely outside of the definition.

Remember that the gi'uste definitions are only guidelines. But I took
a color just as an example. If I'm right it should work for any property
at all, i.e. wherever you can use ckaji you could use zvati. Not
particularly useful in the case of zvati, of course, since we already
have ckaji, but it is useful for other location gismu.

>>        mi punji le bitmu le ka blabi
>>        I put the wall at being white.
>
>How about:
>       Mi punji le ka blabi kei le bitmu
>       I put the quality white at locus - the wall.
>
>I think it's more consistent with the definition.

That's a different paradigm. Properties as transferables (almost
like possessions).  I'm not saying it doesn't work as well. But my
example should work too if properties can be used in location slots.

co'o mi'e xorxes