Re: Summary so far on DJUNO

["Jorge J. Llambías" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

>Someone wrote:
>>> The important point to note that it is not possible for the expressor to
> change
>>>  the metaphysics of a simple statement.
>
>And and asked:
>>Could it be done with a BAI?

And thus responded Chris:
>the case tag would be "fi'o selje'u", right?  Isn't it true that there's
always
>an implied "fi'o selje'u zo'e" in every sentence: "with-metaphysics
> the-obvious"?

In the same sense that there is an implied {cu'u zo'e}, an implied
{tecu'u zo'e}, etc.

>But now I'm confused about something.  Suppose I say:
>
>   la selbarna cu mlatu fi'o selje'u my.
>   Spot is a cat under metaphysics M
>
>Couldn't some clever wag ask "Under what metaphysics is it true that
>(Spot is a cat under metaphysics M)?"

Yes, and suppose I say:

     la selbarna cu mlatu cu'u mi
     Spot is a cat, I say

Couldn't then someone ask "Who says that you say that Spot
is a cat?". Of course, nobody usually asks that, because the speaker
is normally obvious from context, just like the metaphysics.
This applies to an "is a cat" claim as well as to an "is true" claim,
that's why {fatci} is not really such an oddball as lojbab thinks.

> And isn't it that latter metaphysics
>that's *really* what we think governs the speaker's claim that the object
of
>"know"is true for the speaker?

Yes.

>Because, after all, the sentence:
>
>        la .and. djuno ledu'u sy. maltu fi'o selje'u my.
>            And "djuno" (that Spot is a cat under metaphysics M)
>
>doesn't imply that the speaker uses M to know that Spot is a
>cat; nor by Jorge's version of "djuno" does it imply the speaker thinks
Spot
>is a cat -- in fact, I'm not sure it even implies that And believes Spot is
a
> cat!

Right, it only implies that And and the speaker think that (Spot is a cat
under M), not that Spot is really a cat, unless M corresponds to "really".
With the metaphysics place at the djuno level we get:

        la and djuno ledu'u sy mlatu kei fi'o selje'u my
        And "djuno" (that Spot is a cat) under metaphysics M.

Here the metaphysics refers to what is djuno rather than what is mlatu.
In the first case, neither And nor the speaker need believe that Spot
is a cat. In the second, if M is my metaphysics, both And and the speaker
must believe it in order for the claim to be true. If M is Lojbab's
metaphysics only And need believe it.

>Hmmm, am I right about that?  I had thought that  "Proposition BAI sumti"
>always entailed "Proposition", but now I'm not so sure...

 {cu'u} seems to cause the same type of interference.

co'o mi'e xorxes