[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
BAI selma'o
- To: ai-lab!lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com
- Subject: BAI selma'o
- From: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!grackle!bob
- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 16:17:02 EDT
- Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!grackle!bob
- Sender: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!grackle!bob
Members of BAI selma'o with associated gismu
============================================
11 June 1991, typed in by R. J. Chassell
Based on:
8/15/90 non-baselined Lojban cmavo list, with corrections to Spring 1991 and
8/9/88 Baselined Gismu List Public Domain
ba'i replaced by
seba'i instead of
basti bas replace replace/substitute for... 'substitute'
bai compelled by
sebai compelling (forcing result)
bapli bap bai force force/compel...to do/be...by... 'compel'
bau in language
sebau in language of (speakers)
bangu ban bau language language of people(s)...
be'i sent by
sebe'i transmitting (message/cargo)
tebe'i transmit origin (source) [wrong??]
vebe'i receiver [se and te places reversed??]
xebe'i transmitted via (medium)
benji bej bei transfer transfer...to...from...via... 'send'
ca'i by authority of
seca'i with authority over
catni ca'i authority authority/official in/on/over...
cau lacked by
secau without (lacking)
claxu cax cau without be without.../be...less 'lack'
ci'a written by
seci'a in written form
ciska ci'a write write/inscribe...on...with... 'scribe'
ci'e in system
seci'e as a system of
ciste ci'e system system of function...and components...
ci'o emotionally felt by
seci'o emoting (shows attitute)
cinmo ci'o emotion feel emotion...about...
ci'u on the scale
seci'u on scale measuring
ckilu cki scale scale measuring...
cu'u as said by source (attribution)
secu'u expressing (saying)
vecu'u in expression media
cusku cus sku express express/say...to...in form/media...
de'i dated (for letters)
sede't on the same date as (for letters)
detri det date dated day/week/month/year...,calendar...
di'o at the locus of
sedi'o at specific locus
diklo klo local local/confined to locus...
du'a given by
sedu'a giving gift
dunda dud du'a give give...to...
du'i as much as (equalled by)
sedu'i equal to (same as 1st?)
dunli dun du'i equal equal to...in/on dimension/property...
du'o according to (info source)
sedu'o knowing
djuno jun ju'o know know...about...
fa'e reverse of
sefa'e in reversal of (same as 1st?)
fatne fat fa'e reverse in reverse order from...
fau in the event of (non-causal)
sefau happens to (passive case 1)
fasnu fau event event occuring to... 'happen'
ga'a to observer
sega'a observing
zgana zga observe observe...using...under conditions...
gau with agent
segau with event/process/activity
gasnu gau do [new def] ... is the actor/agent
in doing event/process/activity ...
ja'e therefore result
ja'enai nevertheless result (event causal)
seja'e results because of (event causal)
seja'enai results despite (event causal)
jalge jag ja'e result result of...
ja'i by rule (by standard 1; see ma'i)
seja'i by rule prescribing
javni jva rule rule prescribing..to..under..
ja'o shown by
seja'o displaying (event/feature)
teja'o witnessed by (audience)
jarco ja'o show shows/exhibits/displays...to...
ji'e up to limit
seji'e as a limit of
jimte jit limit limit of...in domain...
ji'o under direction of (control)
seji'o controlling
jitro tro control control over/harness...in performance...
ji'u based on (assumptions, axioms)
seji'u support (from basis)
jicmu cmu basis basis/foundation of...
ka'a gone to by
seka'a with destination
teka'a with origin
veka'a via route
xeka'a by transport mode
klama kla come come/go to...from...via...using...
ka'i represented by
seka'i on behalf of
krati ka'i represent represent...to...in matter(s)... 'proxy'
kai characterizing
osekai with property (quality)
ckaji kai quality have quality/feature/property...
ki'i as a relation of (related to)
seki'i related to (same as 1st)
teki'i with relation
ckini ki'i related related to...by relation... 'akin,kin'
ki'u because of reason (justified by)
seki'u reason therefore (with reason) [??]
seki'unai reason nevertheless (despite reason)
ki'unai despite reason
krinu rin ki'u reason reason/justification for...(obj./event)
koi bounded by (bordered by)
sekoi bordering (bounding)
korbi kob koi edge edge/margin of...next to...'border,curb'
ku'u in culture
seku'u in culture of (people)
kulnu kul klu culture culture of people(s)...
la'u in quantity (amount)
sela'u as a quantity of
klani lFrom cbmvax!uunet!math.ucla.edu!jimc Wed Jun 12 09:31:24 1991
Return-Path: <cbmvax!uunet!math.ucla.edu!jimc>
From: cbmvax!uunet!math.ucla.edu!jimc
Return-Path: <jimc@math.ucla.edu>
Message-Id: <9106112350.AA26579@euphemia.math.ucla.edu>
To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com
Subject: Response to Six Messages
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 16:50:46 +0100
Summary:
1. Seen one way, you need to "lower" sumti, not "raise" them.
2. The "sumti - brivla - sumti" phrase form is a major organizing
structure for Lojban; the surface structures should avoid
burying sumti inaccessibly inside abstract sumti.
3. The hidden predicates needed to interpret non-abstract sumti
in abstract slots are outrageous.
4. A pan-predicatist solution to converted <BAI>.
5. The problem with djuno "know" is that people put the wrong
sumti in the wrong places.
6. The problem of cleft places has not gone away. (true, but
not discussed.)
(msg. 1) "Sumti raising" is what it's called in NL? And I have been
assuming that the problem is that the sumti starts out at main level
and has to be "lowered" (by copying, says I) into the subordinate
clause. I have a very bad feeling about emphasis on "sumti raising".
It sounds like you start with a surface structure with all sumti at
main level. (we're talking about jufra but the same considerations
apply to contained bridi too.) Now you (lojbab) assume that
transformations magically occur which precipitate sumti into
sub-phrases (abstract sumti or subordinate clauses) not said
explicitly. Finally, the job of "sumti raising" is to restore the
lowered sumti to main level. Is this really what you mean?
I would start with the surface structure in which sumti are at the main
level. Rules defined by the language architect specify
transformations, in which sub-phrases are created and are populated
with main level sumti. Thus the problem is to "lower", not "raise",
the sumti. Various design choices can then be made about how to do
these transformations. For example, I incline toward cleft places,
such that the subphrase sumti are copies of main level sumti, whereas
other people like uncleft sumti in which main level material is moved,
not copied, to the subphrases. Similarly, I prefer very specific rules
(cf. diklujvo) for what phrases are created and what material should be
moved, whereas other people are willing to rely on the user's "coai quantity quantity of...on scale...
le'a in category (scalar set)
sele'a as a category of
tele'a defined by quality (category)
klesi les kle lei class class/category of...with property...
li'e led by
seli'e leading
lidne li'e leader leader of...in purpose...
ma'i in reference frame (by standard 2; cf ja'i)
sema'i as a standard for (of reference) [??]
manri mar reference reference frame for observing..w/rules..
mau exceeded by (a greater)
semau more than (relative!) [??]
semaunai not more than (relative!) [??]
zmadu zad zma mau more exceeds...in property...by amount...
me'a undercut by (a lesser)
seme'a less than (relative!) [??]
seme'anai not less than (relative!) [??]
mleca lesser ...is less than ... [a mekso bridi]
me'e with name (requires quote)
seme'e as a name for (the named one)
teme'e as named by
cmene cme me'e name name of...to/used by...
mu'i because of motive
semu'i motive therefore [??]
semu'inai motive nevertheless
mu'inai despite motive
mukti muk mu'i purpose purpose/goal for...(obj./event) 'motive'
mu'u exemplified by
semu'u as an example of
mupli mup example example of...
ni'i logically because (entailment)
seni'i entails therefore
seni'inai entails nevertheless (denied entail) [??]
ni'inai despite logic (denied entail)
nibli nib ni'i necessitate necessitate/entail/imply...for rules...
pa'a in addition to (parallel)
sepa'a paralleling (same as 1st)
panra parallel parallel to...in geometry...
pa'u having component
sepa'u as a part of
pagbu pag pau part part of whole...
pi'o used by
sepi'o using tool (instrumental)
pilno pli use use...for... 'employ'
po'i in the sequence (in order)
sepo'i sequenced by rules
porsi por poi sequence (pl.set) sequenced/ordered by rules...
pu'a pleased by
sepu'a in order to please (for)
pluka puk pu'a please please...by doing/being...
pu'e by process (in manner 1; cf ta'i, tai)
sepu'e processing from (inputs)
tepu'e processing into (outputs)
vepu'e passing through stages
pruce ruc ru'e process process: inputs..outputs..steps/stages..
ra'a pertained to by
sera'a concerning (pertaining to)
srana ra'a pertain pertains/relevant to... 'concerns'
ra'i from source
sera'i as an origin for
krasi kra source source/start/beginning of... 'origin'
ri'i experienced by
seri'i experiencing
lifri lif fri experience experience... 'life'
rai with superlative
serai superlative in (property)
terai at extreme (superlative)
verai superlative among
traji taj rai superlative superlative in property... 'extreme'
ri'a causal because (phys./mental)
ri'anai despite cause (phys./mental)
seri'a causal therefore (phys./mental) [??]
seri'anai causal nevertheless (phys./mental)
rinka rik ri'a cause cause for...under...
sau requiring
sesau necessary for (process)
tesau necessarily under (conditions 2)
sarcu sac necessary necessary for process...under...
si'u aided by (aiding agent)
sesi'u assisting in
sidju sid dju help help/assimmon
sense" to fill in ellipsized vacant places or to supply entire
predicates.
Or perhaps what you meant was, that people are supposed to explicitly
say jufra (or s-bridi?) with abstract sumti arguments, but for various
reasons the sumti buried in the abstract sumti have to appear at main
level -- the problem addressed by -gua!spi retro-replication. Is this
what you mean? Retro-replication is needed fairly rarely, but is a
godsend when needed.
(msg 2) It looks to me as though gasnu is properly the "generalized
transitive" predicate which in Old Loglan was madzo/makso (from English
"make"). For example:
le mlatu cu gasnu le nu le ratcu cu morsi
the cat (transitive) the rat dead
The cat kills the rat (makes it dead)
Ask your standard natural language speaker whether "kill" is a unitary
concept that "ought" to be represented by a gismu-like brivla, and he
certainly will say "yes, and the above pile of phrases is a pile of
something else". In other words, a lujvo "mroygau" is demandest/aid...(obj. or event) 'aid'
ta'i having form (like) (in manner 2; cf pu'e)
seta'i as a form of
tarmi tam tra shape shape/form of... 'form'
tai by method (in manner 3; cf pu'e, ta'i)
tai as a method for
tadji method method/technique for doing...under...
ti'i suggested by
seti'i suggesting
stidi tid ti'i suggest suggest/propose idea/action...to...
ti'u associated with time (for letters)
seti'u at the same time as (for letters)
tcika time of day ..(hours,mins,secs) is time of day..at..
tu'i associated with site (for letters)
setu'i as a location of
stuzi tuz stu site site/place/location of... 'position'
va'o under conditions (conditions 1; cf tesau)
seva'o as conditions for (environment)
vanbi vab environment environment/surroundings of... 'ambient'
va'u contained by (container)
seva'u containing
vasru vas vau contain contains.../vessel containing...'vessel'
zau approved by
sezau approving
zanru zar zau approve approve plan/action...(obj./event)
zu'e with actor (purposed agent)
sezu'e purposefully doing
tesu'e with goal
zukte zuk zu'e act act/do...with purpose/goal...; entity
d. Jimc
says that handcrafted lujvo are a dead end and proposes diklujvo -- a
set of rules whereby virtually ALL lujvo and tanru, about 99% by count of
usage in -gua!spi, can be interpreted to transform to a collection of
phrases headed by gismu like the one above. diklujvo are much more
attractive than requiring people to speak explicitly all the abstract
sumti.
(back to msg 1) NL's "I try the door" assumes a default predicate
applying to doors, namely kalri "open", or sometimes ganlo "closed",
depending on complicated context. As you say near (4), there is a lot
of stuff hidden in there. The situation is reminiscent of the word
"do" for which many objects have an associated behavior, e.g. to "do" a
container means to move typical contents from x2 to x3 (via x4 the
container? Let's not get sidetracked :-)
If I get your drift, you ask "what does it mean when a non-abstract
sumti turns up in an abstract slot"? You say, "hundreds of brivla
include vague default predicates and the listener is supposed to drop
the non-abstract sumti into x1 of the default predicate". I strongly
recommend that such default predicates be discouraged. A predicate
should mean THAT PREDICATE, not some other relation contextually
defined via poetic license. The default predicates are too illogical!
Particularly, major semantic surgery on the language cannot be
justified by the (negative) utility of interpreting such non-abstract
sumti. Also, it's common for someone to use a colorful non-abstract
metaphor such as le to'ercnici "the mess" to refer to an event. How
can you tell whether the speaker wants the default predicate engaged,
or the event referent of the non-abstract metaphor to be used as such?
More common sense? I see no option other than to take the user's words
to mean just what he said.
Cowan's (tu'a mi) galfi le bitmu, is being interpreted as (lenu mi
cinta) cu galfi le bitmu. But this sentence again expands to (lenu mi
preja loi cinta) cu galfi le bitmu. YECCH! All these "unspecified"
predicates that get specified by imagination -- they bother me.
(msg 2 again) I think you need (gau mi) cu galfi *se* le bitmu, because
galfi x1 is now missing. I can accept this version much more than I
can accept the other. You mention a distinction between the agent of
change and the event that causes the change. I agree. Actually the
current definition of galfi includes separate places for both. Here it
is with my annotations: "(actor) x1 modifies (cleft object) x2 into
(bridi about x2) x3 by (causative event about x1) x4" where "about"
means that the bridi includes (a copy of) x2 or x1 as one of its sumti
unless common sense ellipsis (or auto-replication) is blocked by
explicit words.
A comment from John Cowan: infinite precision requires infinite verbosity.
However, by adjusting the rules you can make a given number of words be
more or less precise. Many of my proposals have been to shift ambiguity
and requirements for verbosity from one area of the language to another,
thereby to make more precise the most common forms.
(Msg 3) Alternative #1: Athelstan (?) objects to this line of evolution:
gau mi galfi le bitmu (bridi)
le jai gau galfi be *fi* le bitmu (similar sumti)
However, this is bogus because the first sentence should have been
gau mi galfi *fe* le bitmu (bridi should be)
(since the original x1 is vacant). So in both situations the user has
to jump over a place. The change from fe to fi is simply a consequence
of shifting x1-x5 to x2-x6, presumably a tolerable change. Assuming you
come up with a placelink for x6.
Aside-note: In -gua!spi I found that exchange conversion (x1 becomes x4
and x4 becomes x1) was making trouble; a count of instances revealed
that it was quite common to want to put a sumti in the original x1
which is now out in left field. Thus I changed over to what you call
push-down conversion. Because the place numbering gets all wacky, I
felt it was necessary for placelinks <FA> to refer to places before
conversion, e.g. in this example "fa" would hit the original x1 even
though it was then the second ordinal case (4th in Lojban). John Cowan
told me, though, that in Lojban <FA> refers to places after conversion:
"fe" or "fo" in this example.
In any case, I probably like alternative #2 better because it messes up
the place numbering less. Why bother to restrict JAI+tag from logical
connectives, modals, etc? The meanings are totally freaky, but like
you say, maybe Nick can come up with a valid use for them.
Actually, as a pan-predicatist, I would say to use the gismu which the
<BAI> is derived from, with the original main bridi becoming an
abstract sumti of it. Example:
gau mi galfi fe le bitmu
The wall was modified by me
le gasnu be le nu galfi fe le bitmu
The actor in the wall modification
This usage is perfectly clear and it savages the language much less
than a conversion for <BAI>. To my way of thinking, the <BAI> is
actually an abbreviation for a predicate relation on gasnu, which is
not approximately but exactly represented in converted form by the
sumti shown.
(msg 4) I find the discussion of djuno "know" together with relative
questions to be rather opaque; I don't exactly see what the issue is. I
agree that the definition of djuno should be something like "x1 knows
(abstract sumti including x3) x2 about x3 (with epistomology or
whatever) x4". I find for diklujvo production that it's more convenient
to exchange x2 with x3: "x1 knows that x2 is (abstract) x3" but that
decision comes a lot later.
I also recognize that you might want to say "x1 knows (set of facts in
extension) x2" where each fact is an instance of geometry. In English
you would equivalently say "I know geometry" with "geometry" as x3.
For logical expression, on the other hand, I would suggest something
like this. One alternative is the Old Loglan word "spuro" meaning
"competent", which I don't find an equivalent for in the gismu list.
However, it has to be interpreted as "x1 is competent to do (abstract
sumti containing x1)" and thus has the same semantic problems. What
you really want to do is define "geometry" or other areas of knowledge
or competence in this form: "(abstract sumti) x1 is a fact / action /
etc. of (whatever field)". Thus: saske = "x1 is a scientific fact
...(possible other places)". Then "I know science" gets translated as
mi djuno le saske I know something (cued by the word) scientific
mi djuno so'a lo saske I know lots of scientific facts
The events which are x1 occupants of saske are being correctly placed
in djuno x2 which takes such events. (Of course competence in using
the stuff is important too -- an opportunity for a parallel diklujvo.
Also science is as much a process as a set of facts so the above
definition needs tinkering, but the basic form will remain with an
abstract sumti in x1.)
Thus the difficulty is not in djuno, but in saske! I think the other
examples are similar in that the problem is not with djuno, or with
cleft / uncleft places, but with constructing the sumti used in djuno.
(msg 6) An aside: in words for works of art, I have found it convenient
to include a place for both the author and the performer. I had not
previously appreciated that speaker, author and performer might need to
have separate <BAI>'s, but now I'm convinced.
-- jimc