Place structures -- more curiosity

["61510::GILSON" <cbmvax!uunet!CCF4.NRL.NAVY.MIL!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!gilson!61510.decnet>]

A few days ago I wrote:


>John Cowan <cbmvax!snark.thyrsus.com!cowan%UUNET.UU.NET@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
>writes:

>>  ... There are many sets
>>of words in the language which are contrasted precisely by the number of
>>places metaphysically necessary for each:

>>        fasnu           x1 happens (no actor)
>>        gasnu           x1 does x2, x1 is the actor in event x2
>>        zukte           x1 does x2 for x3, x1 employs means x2 to end x3

>>        fatci           x1 is a fact (absolute)
>>        jetnu           x1 is true under conditions x2 by standard x3

>>        binxo           x1 changes into x2 under conditions x3 (no actor)
>>        galfi           event x1 changes x2 into x3
>>        cenba           x1 changes in property x2 by amount x3
>>                                under conditions x4

>>        litru           x1 travels route x2 by means x3
>>                                (no origin or destination)
>>        cliva           x1 leaves x2 via route x3 by means x4 (no destination)
>>        klama           x1 comes/goes to x2 from x3 via route x4 by means x5


>Seems to me that with "zo'e" and the fact that the last places can be
 eliminated
>(if I remember the rules right) you really don't _need_ these nearly synonymous
>gismu.

>What, for example, is the distinction between "x1 cliva x2 x3 x4" and "x1 klama
>zo'e x2 x3 x4"? or, (correct me if I have the "fa" type markers wrong) "x1
 klama
>fe x2 fi x3 fo x4"?

>                                                    Bruce

John Cowan responded:

>mi pu cusku di'e:

>>  ... There are many sets
>> of words in the language which are contrasted precisely by the number of
>> places metaphysically necessary for each:

>[examples omitted]

>>        litru           x1 travels route x2 by means x3
>>                                (no origin or destination)
>>        cliva           x1 leaves x2 via route x3 by means x4 (no destination)
>>        klama           x1 comes/goes to x2 from x3 via route x4 by means x5
>>

>la brus. gilsn. cusku di'e:

>> Seems to me that with "zo'e" and the fact that the last places can be
>> eliminated (if I remember the rules right) you really don't _need_ these
>> nearly synonymous gismu.
>>
>> What, for example, is the distinction between "x1 cliva x2 x3 x4" and "x1
>> klama zo'e x2 x3 x4"? or, (correct me if I have the "fa" type markers wrong)
>> "x1 klama fe x2 fi x3 fo x4"?

>(You mean "x1 klama fi x2 x3 x4"; "fa" is for the first place and so
>on in sequence, and after a single FA tag, following untagged places follow
>in sequence.)

>The difference is in what is or is not understood.  The form

>        mi cliva le zdani

>means "I leave the house", and does >not< necessarily imply that I am going
>to anywhere.  I may have no destination whatsoever.

>        mi klama zo'e le zdani

>or equivalently

>        mi klama fi le zdani

>mean that I go from the house to somewhere which is definite, but unspecified
>by me.  I am not telling you, or not bothering to tell you, where I am going;
>either because it is obvious, or because it is not relevant (or perhaps because
>I want to hide it.)

This finds me wondering the answer to a question asked earlier by Major
<major@pta.pyramid.com.au>:

>Are there any guidelines as to what "deserves" a place in a lojban
>brivla?

>Why for example are there places in 'coin/token' for 'denomination'
>and 'issuer', but but 'material'? I would have thought it was just as
>common to refer to 'gold coins' as 'australian coins'.

>Major

I don't recall ever seeing the answer to his/her question. (I am beginning
to suspect Major is a she, because there seems to be only one name ever given
and I've rarely ever seen that done except by a woman afraid of sexist attitudes
on the part of others; but in the absence of any evidence more solid, I have to
say "his/her.")

                                                     Bruce