alternative translations

[cbmvax!uunet!GNU.AI.MIT.EDU!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!bob]

Here is an update on my suggestion for an alternative way to think
about sentences in logban.

Recently, I suggested an alternative form of definition in which the
gismu is not itself defined, only the places it takes.  For example,

    jukpa              x1: <cooker/preparer>
                       x2: <food-prepared>
                       x3: <recipe/method-of-food-preparation>

With this form, the sumti are translated according the definition and
the gismu is translated as `is/are in a relationship with'.

Thus,

    le nanmu cu jukpa le sovda le zu'o                febvi
       man      cook     egg      activity-abstractor boil
       x1       gismu    x2                           x3

is translated as:

    x1: cooker, I have in mind, the man

        gismu: is in a relationship with

    x2: food-prepared, I have in mind, an egg or eggs

    x3: method-of-food-preparation, I have in mind,
             activity abstraction related to boiling

[ta'o: By the way, I'm not sure whether zu'o, the activity abstractor,
is appropriate here and would appreciate comments.]

(Note that the place definitions for `jukpa' come first in this form
of translation--"cooker that I have in mind, the man" and so on.
The meanings of the place structures specified by the the sumti.)


This form of translation appears to work for gismu that take two or
more places, but fails for one place gismu.

Here is a one place gismu:

    cakla               x1: <entity-made-of/containing-chocolate>

Consider:

    le sovda cu cakla
       egg      chocolate
       x1       gismu

The conventional translation for the sentence is:

    The egg or eggs that I have in mind is/are
        made of chocolate/contain chocolate.

But with my newly suggested way of translating, I get the following

    x1: entity-made-of-chocolate, I have in mind, the egg

        gismu: is in a relationship with


Clearly, this is no good.  The entity-made-of-chocolate in not in a
relationship with anything.  The `is in a relationship with' phrase
must be dropped in the case of single place gismu.

I suggest keeping the same alternative definition form but translate
the first place with `is', and only use the phrase `in a relationship
with' if the gismu has two or more places.

Thus,

    le sovda cu cakla
       egg      chocolate
       x1       gismu

is translated as

    x1: entity-made-of-chocolate, I have in mind, is the egg

(Or, to be more long winded, "le sovda cu cakla" is tranlated as
"I am making a claim that an entity is made of chocolate and that that
entity is that specific thing I am calling an egg.")

Here is another sentence:

    pe'a         lo sovda cu narge zo'e
    figuratively,   egg      nut   unspecified
                    x1       gismu x2

Normally, we would translate this as :

    Figuratively speaking,
    an egg is the nut/hard-shelled-fruit of something unspecified.

but we can also translate it, as:

    Figuratively speaking,
    x1: nut/hard-shelled-fruit is an egg

         gismu: in a (possibly unimportant) relationship with

    x2: something unspecified.

The more flowing translation is easier for an English speaking reader
to understand; but I contend that the second translation conveys the
lojban more accurately:  gismu define relationships among gismu.

Here is a translation for a sentence containing the the famous (or
infamous :-) five place `klama':

    mi klama le zarci le zdani le lalxu le karce

    x1: the comer/goer that I have in mind
        is I or we

        gismu: in a relationship with

    x2: a destination I have in mind, the market,
    x3: a departure-location I have in mind, the house,
    x4: a route I have in mind, the lake,
    x5: a means I have in mind, the car.


Finally, we can translate

    le nanmu cu jukpa le sovda le zu'o febvi

as:

    x1: the cooker is the (specific entity I call a) man

        gismu: in a relationship with

    x2: the food-prepared, that I have in mind, an egg or eggs,

    x3: and a method-of-food-preparation, that I have in mind,
             activity abstraction related to boiling



    Robert J. Chassell               bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu
    Rattlesnake Mountain Road        (413) 298-4725 or (617) 253-8568 or
    Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA   (617) 876-3296 (for messages)