Re: TECH: experimental cmavo "xo'e"

[hedgehog@SCRIPPS.EDU]

>>Isn't the difference between "zbasu fi noda" and "zbasu fi xo'e" that the
>>first recognizes that x1 makes x2 from nothing (but it *could* have been
>>made from something) and the second says that x1 makes x2 *period*?  "zabsu
>>fi zo'e" says that x1 makes x2 from something-or-other.
>
>But what does "x1 makes x2 period" mean?  Does it mean you're not saying
>anything about the existence or non-existence of the materials?  That's {fi
>zo'e}, since {zo'e} can be {noda}.  Does it mean there are no such
>materials?  That's {fi noda}.  {xo'e} does seem to have a meaning in some
>cases, distinct from {noda} or {zo'e}, but apparently not in this case.  I
>am not sure how this can be defined in general.
>
>~mark


"x1 makes x2 period" means that the question of the materials is
inappropriate.
How about "A mind makes (or produces) a thought".  The thought isn't made
of nothing. The thought isn't made of an unspecified material.  The
question of material just isn't appropriate.

Earlier in the discussion someone had said:
>This pops up for me when I want to say something universal, but
>    where the natural gismu seems to want an agent: "Living things are
>    made from cells [by whom?]", ...   English gets away with a
>    passive here, because the passive in English does not commit you
>    to the existence of an agent...

I think the difficulty here is because this person felt that "[by whom?]"
implied _le cevni_ rather than _lenu farvi_.  I don't agree with that
opinion and so I don't feel that it is necessary to use _xo'e_ with _zbacu_
in that context.

I also want to make it clear that I am not an advocate of _xo'e_.  I feel
that it would introduce the sort of grammatical ambiguity than Lojban is
intended to reduce.  If there is a need to say "x1 makes x2",  I would
rather see a new gismu introduced than _xo'e_.



*****************
Richard Schroeder
hedgehog@riscsm.scripps.edu

The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of TSRI or its
funding agencies.