Re: kliru

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@GREBYN.COM>]

The element words in the gismu list have an complicated history.  JCB
had words for ALL of the elements in his dictionary in 1974/75, and they were
all of gismu structure.  When he remade the words in 1979-82, though, he
chose to only make some of them as gismu, the ones that occur in typical
non-technical speech.  The others were shunted off to le'avla space.

One reason cited, was that these words, like other non-technical words, are
occasionally used in natural language in non-jargony ways, i.e figuratve
metaphors.  Iron, tin can, aluminum foil, chrome plate, nickel - all of these
are in this category.  A similar argument was used for deciding what animals
rated gismu, when gismu space clearly cannot support a fractuion of all the
animals that exist, or even that are used commonly in speech.  Indeed the
metaphor idea breaks down, since we use "coon", "zebra", "turtle", etc.
metaphorically in English.  So probably word/concept frequency coupled with
JCB's own aesthetics determined which elements got gismu in old Loglan.

For Lojban, we wanted to have a more objective method of deciding, so we
looked for the metaphorical approach, but then allowed the list of plausible
candidates to be weeded both by lack of common usage (i.e. the word wasn't
common enough to make it into the dictioanries of the other 5 source languages)
and conflicts woth other wordas and for rafsi.  But the bottom line was that
we wanted to have at least the same gismu that JCB had, unless we had an ex
reason NOT to do so.  So all of his limited set stayed around unless we had
such a reason, and we added a couple more based on obvious common metaphorical
usage.

With the rise of communoty feedback on the wordlist, most especially here on
the net, the elements and animal words and cultural gismu have been most
strongly attacked as being a waste of gismu space.  Word frequency might be
a somewhat valid argument, but we have littrle data to supprts such.  So we
wnet rather strongly on the metaphorical angle - after all, making tanrui and
lujvo is a major advantage for words on the gismu list.  That standard of
metaphorical use was elevated in importance even as it became less meaninfgful.
After all, we frown on figurative metaphors in Lojban these days, and few
of the element words, or the animals have non-figuartive metaohors

(oh I forgot domesticity as a factor for animals - animals commonly found arou
the house or farm were prone to being included, and by extension, so were
elements that were coomon enough to be talked about by everyday people.

The movement has been to have gismu broadened in meaning whereever possible.
Thus the gismu for chlorine was broadened to included all halogens (especially
worthwhile since we talk about iodine, bromides, floride toothpaste, and
 hallights as often as we talk about hydrochlotric acid and chlorine in your
swimming pool.  Likewise, "neon" was broadened to include all inert gases,
especially since some "neon" lights use other inert gases.

WE broadened the meanings and effectively abandoned any claim that these
words had any particular meaning in terms of the recognized scientific
nature of the elements and the aniumals.  Thus a whale could very well
be a type of Lojban finpe (fish) even though thisis not scientifically
valid.  (though for such cases we will TRY to be accurate where we know
better in making wors).

Most of the lements remained just one element, though most of the animals came
to be recognized as categories offering some kind of spread of species and
subspecies.  Thus the element words haven't had a place for species/typoe.

You have now pointed out that at least for kliru, this is invalid, and
presumable navni as well.  So we need to add a place to these and other
comparable element words thae have a 'species spread', a form that allows
the 'species' to be identified.

If someone wants to look at the elemen words and see if others need such
 treatment, i welcome such comments.

lojbab