Re: TECH: long, but major topic: lean lujvo and fat gismu

[Jorge LLambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>]

la lojbab cusku di'e

> If people have specific comments about such fat gismu or inconsistent
> place structures, we are just about at the last point where they can be
> proposed and still get in the dictionary (like within a week or so, I hope).

Well, these are the ones I find fat at the moment:


1- Of the vehicle gismu: marce/carce/karce/bloti/trene/vinji/jakne
{trene} is the only one that has an owner place. I suppose for the owner of
the rails. I don't see how it fits there. It also restricts it to railroad
trains.
In {jakne}, the material/form of the rocket doesn't seem very relevant. (The
"carrying" and "propelled by" places are reversed wrt the others. I guess the
propellent is more important for rockets, but I would prefer to keep the same
order.)

2- The "means/vehicle" places in cliva/klama/litru make it difficult to talk
about non-propelled motion. Also, in the case of the Sun moving across the sky
for example, we cannot describe the movement from the reference frame of the
Earth, but must talk of some "apparent motion".
The route place of {cliva} shifts the meaning from the "leaving", to the
travelling involved. Since there are already two other travelling gismu, it
seems a waste that {cliva} be one as well.

3- The x2 of {bargu} excludes arches that don't curve around anything. Since
{cripu} covers that part, I don't see why it's needed.

4- The x3 of {sorcu} restricts it to supplies stored in a single place. Since
{vasru} is already there for container, I don't think {sorcu} needs to be so
restricted. In general, supplies need not be in a container.

5- I think the x3 of {cartu} is not part of the concept. {catyzba} can be used
when the maker is required.

6- I'd much prefer the author x3 out of {cfika}. I realize that in our
copyrighted society the author can't be ignored, but I remember how much
I enjoyed reading as a child, when I was blissfully unaware of the existence
of such things as an authors, it was simply not a part of the story. The author
is already in {lisri}, and there is a simple BAI for it, so why not leave
{cfika} author-free? (Same for {pixra})

7- The x3 and x4 of {cikre} don't make any sense to me. If something has some
use, then fixing it will supposedly restore that use, if it doesn't have a use,
it can also be fixed. It seems that {pilno} got mixed with {cikre}, I don't
see why.

8- I don't see why the x3 of {diklu} is not a part of its x2.

9- {finti} without an x3 seems to be just as useful (and makes more sense
for composes/authors). It seems that two different ideas were fused into one.
(A real artist will not have a purpose for their creations! :)

10- The language places in {jufra} and {tavla} seem to me like having a place
for colour in {bolci} for example. It's not an important aspect of the concept
(especially of {tavla}). I suppose Lojbanists are inordinately language-
conscious, though.

11- I'm not sure what the x3 of {pikci} is, but it seems like it would be a
part of x2.

12- If the x4 of plipe is important, it has to merge with the x2, I can't
think of a resaon to have both.

13- I don't understand the x3 of {ckiku}, what relevant properties?

14- The x4 of {dapma} makes it too specific. If needed, one can use {dapsku}.

15- I was surprised that {misno} doesn't have an x3 place, but that's ok.


co'o mi'e xorxes