steven on john's fuzz moot

[ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>]

> As I understand it, <jeha> is a cmavo of the NAhE selmaho class, thus
> it would apply to the bridi, in this case, <mi blanu>.

Rather, it modifies the selbri. But in some rather murky ways. For
example, does {nae broda} mean "non broda; the complement of broda"
or "something other than broda"? Does "mi jea xi .5 cilre lo cukta"
mean that there is a book that I half read - that I am in a relationship
of half-reading with. Or does it mean that I have the property of
having half read a book. Another possibly less confusing example:
does "mi jea xi .5 se stedu da" mean "there is something with which
I am in a relationship of quasiheadedness" or "I half have a head"?

> I am seeking a general formalism that will describe the fuzziness of a
> grammer structure, such as a selbri, rather than a fuzzy formalism whose
> scope is the entire bridi.

Are you asking for too much. If there's a fuzzy operator for bridi and
selbri, what else do you want?

> Supose I use And's experimental fuzzy operator, but with the <xoi>
> *before* the grammer structure it is to modify, that is with
> structure:
> x1 is <fuzzy number> on scale/in quality x2
> <mi xoi pinomu blanu>
> "I am fuzzily 0.05 blue."

This is very different from {xoi} as I proposed it.

> One could make a lujvo using something like <murse> + <blanu> =
> mursyblanu and apply the number to that.

Since {blanu} is already fuzzy, I don't think this is the solution.

> This would be idiomatic and we would have to adopt the convention that
> murse used in this way would be a fuzzifier. We could come up with a
> new gismu for fuzzy and do the same thing. (I suggested <fudji>, but
> there is resistance to new gismu. I used <kerfa>, but some people
> thought this was a malglico. It doesn't seem much worse to me than
> <murse>, but some people thought <murse> was better.) I could use a
> fuhivla, I suppose, like <lojyfuzis>

You really think "hair" is as apt as "twilight"? Anyway, I see why
you wanted {fudji}, or felt {murse} must be idiomatic in lujvo, and
the unfeasability of this confirms that a lujvo approach to fuzziness
is misguided.

> I am still not sure why one couldn't say:
> <mi pinomu blanu>
> as I'm not sure what *else* this could be referring to but either
> nonsense or a fuzzy sort of blue, but for some reason this didn't
> fly either. (Why not?)

It is, I think, a sequence of two sumti, {mi} and {pinomu blanu} =
".05 of a default unit of bluestuff".

> <levi rozgu xoi moi re fihu mu rozgymelbi>
> "This-here thing I am calling a rose is a 2 out of 5 on the ordinal fuzzy
> rose-beauty scale."

I think {levi rozgu jea xi re fiu mu rozmelbi} will do, except that, as
you've said, something other than {fiu} is needed. Failing that,  you
could use a lujvo - murse zei ckaji, say - with a place structure to
suit your every craving.

coo, mie and