Re: Navaho (was: version declaration for le lojbau)

[C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK]

lojbab:

> I'm not sure that Colin's pseudo-lujvo of name-zei-brivla meet the morpholog-
> gical rules of the language,

...

> On the other hand, in theory, pausing before a name will always delimit it.
> This is an effect of the morphology and might permit such odd uses of names
> where they are otherwise forbidden.  But I tend to discourage it - I don't
> want to see the language drift towards, for example, pause-headed vocatives
> instead of vocatives marked with 'doi'.

I agree

>
> Still, we allow name+bu, so I guess the morphology processor should accept
> name+zei+brivla.  But the purpose of zei was to allow le'avla to be used in
> compounds, not names, and I am less than compelled to support stretching a
> rule formulation to its logical extreme, as these pseudo lujvo seem to be
> doing.  Turning the name into a le'avla is a better approach than leaving it
> in the morphologically risky yet not necessarily any better (at matching the
> original word), then making the name into a le'avla.

On reflection, I agree here too. There are two possible advantages to using
cmene rather than fu'ivla (*) in a jvosmi:
- they are usually shorter
- the distortion to form a cmene is often less than that for a fu'ivla
These are fairly weak, and a counter argument is that fu'ivla (in the
standard form) contain a rafsi determiner, making the meaning clearer.

I think 'zei', like 'bu' is fraught with difficulties, and we should be wary
of it.

* fu'ivla:
I am finding it harder and harder to tolerate the word le'avla.  It's supposed
to mean 'taking word', regarded as a better metaphor than 'borrowed word',
but it fails on two counts. First of all, whatever a le'avla might actually
mean, it certainly indicates a 'taker word' rather than a 'taken word'.
Secondly, the definition of 'lebna' is about taking, gaining, seizing,
confiscating. The reason for the word 'borrow' in the English metaphor is,
it seems to me, that the original user (language) still has use of a
borrowed word. I would therefore contend that in Lojban too, be'avla (or
rather selbe'avla - borrowed word) would be better than le'avla
(confiscator word).  Still not good, though.
I thought about fengyvla - foreign word; but there are other meanings we might
want for that lujvo.
I have settled on fu'ivla - copy word - as the best I can think of. It is not
immediately clear what it means (what kind of copy), but neither is le'avla.

I realise that le'avla is fairly well entrenched now, and I will not object
if others go on using it; but I urge that the nu'o dictionary contain a
better lujvo as well - fu'ivla, unless anybody comes up with a better one -
and I intend to use this rather than le'avla.


fu'ivla = fukpi valsi (see discussion above)
jvosmi = lujvo simsa = pseudo-lujvo

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