Re: TECH: misc transitive place structure issues

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

Nick responds to Lojbab (me)
>I salute the attempt to tidy the gi'uste up (one last time %^) ) of
>"transitives", though I do think a clarification is in order....

So, I don't know my linguistic terminology too well (yet?) %^)  I never
really understood what a transitive was before (assuming I do now).

>#rinju ri'u restrain x1 (object/agent) restrains/constrains x2
>#(object/event) under conditions x3 3m 19 (cf. zifre, ralte, pinfu)
>#    object/agent confusion in x1 is a red flag to me.  Intransitive x1 is
>#    a 'restraint', transitive is a 'restrainer/agent'
>
>Make it nonagentive; just remember that it'll have a funny place order in the
>agentive form (this, and a few others): agent x1 makes restraint x2 restrain
>x3, rather than the expected agent x1 restrains x2 with x3

These are the types of things that will undoubtedly kill your formal scheme.

>#sisti sti cease x1 [agent] ceases/stops/halts activity/process/state x2
>#[not necessarily completing it] 1g 117 (cf. fanmo, mulno, cfari, denpa)
>#    x2 ceases (not necessarily completing)
>
>We never did find out why this was not parallel with {cfari}. I don't even
>recall a rationale being presented. What was the story here?

That's the way JCB did it, and we never changed it.  cfari was a gismu
"invented" by me because JCB did not distinguish well between initiation
and origin as a meaning of "start" and had malglico lujvo.

I assume this is a vote for change.

>#tcica tic deceive 'cheat, trick' x1 (agent/event) deceives/dupes/fools
>#x2 about subject x3 by method/actiond tisna to fill a glass 1/2 full.  (Hmm,
when a glass is full, is it culno.  We usually say it is full when it
isn't but is mostly so, and we don't want to risk spillage.)  And
perhaps also to fill a plate (for which "full" can only be defined by
when stuff starts falling off).  Of course, you have to watch out that
you don't overlap with setca as well.