Re: TECH: misc transitive place structure issues

[Jorge LLambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>]

mi tugni la nitcion fo le da'aso'umei

> #lasna la'a fasten 'lash' x1 (agent) fastens/connects/attaches x2 to x3
> #with fastener x4 3f 17 (cf. jorne, fenso, jgena)
> #   x1 becomes fastened to x2 by fastener x3
> #   (may be similar to jornybinxo)
>
> If too similar, then leave it as is.

I don't think they are too similar, but the concept should be
x1 is fastened/connected/attached/tied to x2 with fastener x3,
rather than "becomes".

> #lumci lum lu'i wash x1 (agent) washes/cleanses x2 of soil/contaminant x3
> #in/with cleaning material(s) x4 *5g 16 (cf. djacu, jinru, litki, zbabu,
> #jinsa)
> #    x1 is washed/cleansed of x2
>
> In which case... no, it doesn't become identical with {curve}, because there's
> still a ve lumci (which in my day was a te lumci; you've been revising the
> place structures overtime!) Hm. Yeah, change it. Nonagentive washing does
> happen. (You'll have to document all this in the gi'uste, of course)

I don't like this change much, but I'm not sure. Can you give some example
of non-agentive washing?

> #polje plo fold x1 (agent/force) folds/creases x2 at locus/loci/forming
> #crease(s)/bend(s) x3 a 0 [use cardinal-value sumti in x3, or rapli, to
> #indicate multiple folds]; (cf. korcu, cinje)
> #    x1 becomes folded/creased at x2
>
> I suppose.

I don't know.

> #tcica tic deceive 'cheat, trick' x1 (agent/event) deceives/dupes/fools
> #x2 about subject x3 by method/action x4 (event/activity) a 36 (cf.
> #stace)
> #    agent/event confusion looks like transitive/intransitive confusion
>
> Deception is an agentive concept. Misleading isn't, and is what the event x1
> would cover, although it sounds very close to an x4. Don't change it unless
> you change the keyword to eliminate agentiveness and harmful intent ---
> and even then, shouldn't misleading be handled by another selbri anyway?

The same thing happens with:

kajde jde warn  'caution'  x1 (person/event/medium) warns/cautions x2 (person)
of/about danger x3 (event/state/property) 4c  42 (cf. ckape, nupre, snura)

Is x1 an agent?

> #tunlo tul tu'o swallow x1 (agent/throat) swallows/engulfs x2 5c 2 (cf.
> #citka, pinxe)
> #     Does your throat or you do the swallowing?  This may be agent/object
> #     confusion, or it may be a mass concept masquerading as metonymy
>
> Eek. Don't know what to make of this one (as the logician said to the
> pragmaticist); I guess keep it as is; we don't need to disentangle more than
> we are capable of...

It is not the throat that does the swallowing. At most, the swallowed object
goes through the throat. I'm not sure also whether "engulfing" is the same
as "swallowing". It sounds more like {sruri}, or {te daplu} to me.
I think {tunlo} should be kept as is.

co'o mi'e xorxes