Re: jorne 10 Feb 95 06:16:26 EST.) <199502101116.AA22590@access4.digex.net>

[ucleaar <ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk>]

Lojbab:
> >> You can call it that.  I would call it a garna se dandu bukpu.
> >> It certainly isn't a lanci to me, zi'o or no zi'o.
> >That it is not a lanci is precisely my point. And if a patterned
> >oblong of cloth fluttering from a flagpole cannot be a lanci be
> >ziho then {ziho} is of no use whatever.
> "Cannot be."  Well, it COULD be given the definition of "zi'o".
> >I< just wouldn't use it. Using zi'o is kinda of metaphorizing off of
> lanci - saying "its not a lanci relationship, but it is similar, but the
> 'x' place/role is not relevant.  Thus you are involing the place that
> is not there, and then specifically denying it.  I prefer a more
> explicit denial of the place like selylancyclaxylanci if I feel that much
> need to invoke and then deny (especially if I can invoke some more obvious
> 'lack' then a simple conversion like smunyclaxylanci).

These ghastly lujvo may be an appropriate way to talk about flags we know
to symbolize nothing. When ziho is especially appropriate is when we
don't know whether a certain flag symbolizes anything. To truthfully call
it a lanci you'd first off have to undertake research to find out if
it symbolizes anything. {lanci be ziho} means "I don't know (or I'm
not saying) whether this symbolizes anything, but in all other respects
this qualifies as a lanci".

> [...] trying to map the English semantic space onto the Lojban word
> (which is what I think all usages of zi'o I've ever seen are really
> trying to do).

Do we have a list of such usages? I recall only klama fo ziho, and
discern no basis for thinking this or lanci fe ziho are attempts to
get at specifically English meanings. Flags are a kind rather clearly
distinct from other kinds, when form & function are taken into
consideration: they're not easily confusable with anything else.

But anyway, I don't like ziho either. But at least quasi-reasonable
uses of it may serve to highlight deficiencies in the place structures
of certain gismu.

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And