Re: Questions

[Dylan Thurston <dpt@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>]

coi xorxes .i ki'e danfu

On Mon, 8 May 1995 jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU wrote:

> > >From the text:
> > >.i mi fi do ca cusku doi pendo fe ledu'u mi mu'inai loi cazi li'i nandu
> > >joi se steba cu ca'o pacna da .i da mutce se jicmu le'e merko se pacna
> ...
> > "cazi" is a tense indicator, "now" "short time distance".  I don't
> > know what it would mean, though.  The English has "the difficulties of
> > <today and tomorrow>" around here.  The structure of the whole tale
> > end of that birdi eludes me.
> ...
> {li'i nandu joi se steba} would be "x1 is an experience of something
> being difficult/frustrating for someone". From context, I would
> understand that the experiencer is the one for whom something is
> difficult/frustrating, and not the one that is difficult/frustrating.
> I think it would be mopre clear to say: {li'i se nandu joi steba}.

But both would be correct, right?  None of the sumti places of {nandu
joi se steba} are filled anyway.

> {cazi} means "now", but the {zi} adds a little uncertainty as to the
> exact position of the now. It could be "just now" or "any time now".
> So {cazi li'i nandu joi se steba} means "x1 is, about now, an experience
> of difficulty/frustration}.
>
> Then {loi cazi li'i nandu joi se steba} would be {some present
> difficulties}.

OK, that's helpful.  Thanks.

> A more literal translation perhaps would be {lei cabna joi balvi nandu}.

Could you also say something like {lei caba nandu}?  What's the proper
tense indicator for "present, and continuing", without implying any
termination?

> > ....
> I understand {fatci smuni} as "the real/actual meaning", which seems
> right. {jicmu smuni} would be "the most elemental meaning", opposed
> perhaps to a more sophisticated one.

Yes, I was just being silly.

> > Because of these two and what strikes me as an overabundance of tanru,
> > I'd guess that Nick wrote this while he was still experimenting with
> > his lojban style.  Is this right?  Is there a better text for a
> > beginner to start with?

Sorry, that came out totally wrong.  I was feeling rather frustrated
when I wrote this.

But I would appreciate some grading of the texts, for ease of reading,
etc.  (Or at least a date, to get an idea of the development of style.)

> > >- the box is bottle-shaped, making ta1 both a bottle and a box;
> > >- the box contains one or more bottles;
> > >- the box is made of one or more bottles;
> > >- the box is the contents of one or more bottles;
> > >- the box is the material used for making one or more bottles.
> >
> > The 4th and 5th examples here perplex me; they violate the only
> > meaning I could give to the earlier quote.  Anybody?
>
> The x1 of {botpi tanxu} is a box. I suppose that the 4th example
> means that it's a box inside a bottle, a "bottled box", although
> {se botpi tanxe} might be more clear. I don't understand the 5th
> example either.

I think you misunderstood my question.  These are all clear meanings,
whether or not they make sense in the real world; they relate the
different places of {tanxu} and {botpi}, it seems.

I was asking if it's permissible to use {botpi tanxu} for the fourth
meaning, or if {se botpi tanxu} is necessary (by the principle that "the
first place of {botpi} in some way restricts the relation".

> > .i fe'omi'e dilyn. trsTON.
> ...
> That's why a pause is needed after {mi'e}, which if you write the dots
> should be written {mi'e.}

Oh!  I didn't realize pauses could occur between a vowel and a
consonant.

> You don't need to capitalize TON, because the o is the only vowel and
> so it already has the stress anyway.

I intended the 'r' to be vocalic.  Surely it could be stressed?  (An
example from the textbook: {CR,lok. xolmz.}) Do I need a comma?  (See
below.)

mi rapygau lenu mi ckire

fe'omi'e. dilyn. TRS,ton.
(Doubtless I could omit the capitalization with the revised stress.)